Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 18, 2013.
There was no more backstory in The Wrath of Khan than there was here.
Agreed. "Space Seed" wasn't referenced. It was assumed that people knew who Khan was.
Well, the events were. But there was no need for referencing Space Seed here because it never happened.
Khan recaps "Space Seed" to Checkov and Tyrell...
I'm probably the lone stranger, but I actually disagree. STID worked better (to me) if you DIDN'T know who Khan is and I am probably alone in this, but feel TWOK definitely works better if you saw Space Seed. Otherwise, the brief recap to Chekov and Tyrell is kind of throwaway and all you're left with is seeing this crazy guy hunting Kirk and you don't really know why.
A film shouldn't depend upon one throwaway line to work.
But I realize it's practically sacrilege to at all nitpick TWOK or Space Seed.
Saw it twice & will see it more. There was one guy in the theater (second time I saw it) who fell asleep & left & one who left after the KHAAAN! scene but they were both a bit odd anyway.
I gotta say that I'm not surprised by the reactions of a lot of the fanboys who are upset over someone daring to touch Khan. I was hoping that this would be an origional idea & villian & in a way it was. Khan was discovered by someone other than Kirk &the mastermind behind this, Admiral Marcus, was going to try & use the supermen against the Klingons & other enemies. Kahn was of course using Marcus for his own gains. Same character, different story.
I liked the fact we finally got to see a different city in Trek. Sure we saw New Orleans in DS9, but not much more than the area around Sisko's. Also liked seeing the way people got around, finally the hover cars we were promised in the 50's! Liked the trolly in San Francisco too, sems anti-grav technology has been mastered as well as AI tech. The guy on the bridge of the E (Gaitt 5000 I think) & the two near the end w/ McCoy that looked like medical versions of the robocop that chased after the young Kirk in ST09 were nice additions to the Trek universe. I wonder if the budget was there would robots have appeared in past Trek shows/movies.
Also liked the models of the NX Delta & NX-01.
I have the greatest wife in the world. When carol says the frozen man is 300 years old, she turns to me and says "oh no is it gonna be Abraham Lincoln ?"
It's a very barebones recap, much like STiD, where it's just enough to establish that Khan is a bad guy, but not enough to really explain the deeper detail as to why.
I'm not sure that's true - we know Khan in TWOK was marooned on a planet by Kirk, and that he considers himself a superior being to Kirk - so we know he was humiliated by his imprisonment. We know that this humiliation was compounded once the planet became a wasteland where he and his people had to struggle to survive for decades because no one bothered to check on him. When he tells that story, you cannot help but imagine him, day after day, year after year, ruminating on his humiliation, the injustice of it all, especially to a being born to rule. We know his beloved wife was killed and he considers Kirk personally responsible. Also, having the same actor reprising the role means that if you know Space Seed you can believe that it is that character's history, so the possibility is there to bring that knowledge to the movie.
This Khan wasn't the Khan I knew. I don't know if he was involved in the Eugenics War, no Eugenics war was mentioned. I don't know why he was outlawed, put in cryogenic sleep and launched into space. I don't really know how he feels about regular people other than that he considers himself superior to them - but that seems a rather objective assesment on his part. That is, it doesn't have any emotional color. He never mentions despising regular humans, wanting to destroy or rule them, in fact he never mentions wanting anything except to be with his people - so he seems a ... smaller character. Cumberbatch's choice to play him so cold also means he's a bit of a cypher. I don't know how he feels about anything except that he loves his people and will do anything to save them, which is a fairly generic motivation. Montalban's Khan had very specific motivations, even if all you know is what you learn in the movie itself.
Don't get me wrong. I thought the villain was quite good, but I didn't know anything about him except that he was a badass who was mad at our heroes.
Didn't want to see it, but a friend insisted on going.
For a completely forgettable summer popcorn flick and blockbuster film, I rate it a B+. Would be better if this wasn't a seriously perverted Star Trek film.
For a Star Trek film a D. Only cause there is a little bit of Trek in there.
But in all honesty, this feels like Star Wars 1 - 3.
They even include a paraphrase of Vader's NO!!!!!!. Now people will be laughing at Spock's KHAN!!!!!
I liked most of first part of the film. Especially Pike's speech. But none of the principle characters come off as taking the job serious. It's like watching a bunch of kids trying to command a boomer. This is due to a combination of the writers and directors tastes.
Khan's motivation is believable. And he does come off as an augment. But he seems more pissed than cunning.
But the miracle blood is completely stupid. They could completely leave that out. Have him kidnap and threaten to kill the little girl. That's how he makes the section 31 guy blow up the archive. Don't kill Pike in the meeting. Have him sacrifice himself to save the ship. 1. It would teach Kirk to take the job serious. 2. No need for stupid blood. 3. No stupid reset button.
Marcus' motivations seem plausible considering the last film. But the actor should have been someone else. He basically cloned his Paxton performance.
I still do not like JJ Prise inside and out. It's ridiculously too big. The engine sets look too big to fit inside. And he is seriously channeling too much Star Wars, which is his first love. I feel like we're in Leia's blockade runner.
Are these writer really fans? What dumb ass puts life support control in an expendable part of the ship?
The ship is supposed to make sense and very little makes sense. Hell the inside of this "Warp Core" looks bigger than the outside. When did the Feds develop Time Lord technology?
All and all I think these guys sat down said lets use these characters. Then we want these FX and action scenes. Now lets wedge a story in here somehow to make it believable. But it's not, so they move it too fast for you to even question it.
Case in point, how does Scotty find the Vengeance at a secure Section 31 facility and his shuttle is not detected? Oh and Kirks speech at the end. Please tell me that is not in the oath. It would be too lame.
I for one am glad JJ is going on to Star Wars. He'll fit right in. But I seriously doubt I will want to see the next "Star Trek" film.
RIP Star Trek. Long live Trek Wars.
Rewatch the film. They don't mention the Eugenics Wars but they do mention him trying to lead the world and towards the end Spock mentions that if he gets the seventy-two other Augments, that he would again start trying to cleanse those that don't meet their standards.
Can someone please tell me what the fuck a Star Trek film is?
That's it! I'm going to go get drunk with the wife.
It's just another way of saying "it isn't what I think it has to be," nothing more.
At this point, some folks will refuse to see this movie, or Abrams previous effort, as "Real Trek". I've all but given up trying to argue this point.
Apparently it is a little different for everyone. But to me, this just isn't it. I'll have to get my fix from novels and the previous TV shows and films.
Yeah, that's something I've noticed over the past years and I'm just not sure if I can adapt to it. Yet there is plenty of excellent television on these days which is not so accelerated as you say, and seems to do just fine. It makes me wonder how this group or an equally talented production company might handle a TV series.
And for a minute in the movie, when it was the Enterprise under the command of Admiral Pike with First Officer James Kirk, I was like, "Man, I'd love to see some of those adventures."
Star Trek Into Darkness.
Well, "backstory" may not be the appropriate term for the distinction Lapis Exilis was originally contemplating.
It's possibly more that what we see feels like a very incomplete chunk of Khan's story.
Prior to the beginning of the film, we are to assume that, from memory: he was awakened from the cryo-sleep by Admiral Evil, is betrayed by him, and is seeking revenge. That is where Khan's story overlaps with the movie.
It's an awkward way to introduce the character. No doubt that is partly because they didn't want to overlap with the events of Space Seed. But that is why it feels reliant on knowing the previously established story.
In TWoK, the main relevant piece of information is established in the film itself: Khan having been marooned by Kirk and escaping.
It's a necessary by-product of the film using both Khan and Marcus/Section 31, and it's not a huge deal, but I think it does make an impact. In essence, we are getting exposition, not only about Khan's backstory prior to being frozen, but also *after* being un-frozen, so there is a lot of "tell."
I actually really liked the fact that Khan's "wrath" was not directly toward Kirk initially, that Kirk was just sucked into two other peoples' pre existing conflict. It was a much fresher and more intelligent way to handle this situation than we've previously seen, though obviously Khan "kicked the dog" by crushing Marcus' skull, establishing himself then as a direct enemy of Kirk. Though it also never seemed personal - Khan just wanted to be reunited with his crew - and that was also way more intelligent than the average mustache twirling villain.
Chekov was on the Enterprise as early as stardate 3018.2 ("Catspaw") and "Space Seed" took place on stardate 3141.9, so Chekov would have been there even if he didn't appear onscreen.
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