Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agent Richard07, Apr 18, 2013.
Hence the attraction of Kirk.
I think the Wallace bit was a nod to hard core TOS fans. I liked it.
I believe that Marcus lost control of Khan the moment Khan was captured since Kirk did the right thing by going to Qonos instead of shooting it. Given Marcus' statement as you talk to him, Marcus was expecting a fight when he arrived not, Kirk telling him why he is there.
My favorite line is Kirk ordering McCoy not to speak in metaphor.
That is a good question and really the one big plot hole in the movie for me. Who knows, maybe they were busy issuing 3oz and under tubes of toothpaste for everyone?
Overall, I enjoyed the hell out of this movie. It was fun and entertaining, which at the end of the day is what I want from any movie. The audience was laughing and cheering ... it was special .. which is what I want from Star Trek. Movies like Insurrection are fine (and I liked it), but it is also the kind of movie ended the ST run of movies.
Beyond the obvious that it had Kahn in it, this movie felt like Wrath of Kahn with the pacing and being a good old fashion good guy versus bad guy movie.
I think those people looking for something similar to TOS/TNG should wait for another TV series, where perhaps the medium where their brand of Star Trek is more suited. Personally, I like both and can enjoy rewatching TNG on Netflix as I am doing now and watching crap blow up in 3D like I did last night and enjoy that as well. I guess I am embracing IDIC
But surely he lost control of him before Khan blew up the meeting Marcus was in?
And the whole "Vulcan isn't there anymore" aspect of things.
I think the meeting was part of the plan. Blow up the "archive" that apparently only high (above Admiral Pike) ranking personel knew about. That got all the command staff of all the ships in the sector in one room. KHAN kills them, "misses" Marcus, gets away and Marcus is left to militarize Starfleet to combat the recent tragedies.
That's probably also why they didn't bust Kirk back down to cadet. Keep him on Enterprise so Khan can take him out at the meeting.
My take on the plan, was Marcus was counting on Kirk's shoot first ask question later style due him knowing about him from Pike. It was all Marcus' plan up until Marcus got word that Khan was captured, so the plan changed to the Vengeance destroying the Enterprise due to Kirk's "involvement" with Khan. At least we didn't get a Bond-style premature obit of the Enterprise quoted by Marcus.
My overall opinion of the movie, it didn't have a TWOK feel nor a Space Seed feel, I got the Dreadnought novel vibe going on, and I liked it, it was very appropriate for this timeline.
Pretty sure the Starfleet meeting was only a couple of hours at most after the London bombing? Hence Marcus saying "by now, some of you will have heard about the bombing in London".
I thought it was established that Khan basically blew up that building because he knew a Starfleet meeting would be called and that gave him a chance of killing Marcus
I saw it in IMAX 3D last night and it was simply awesome! The visuals were spectacular, the acting was fantastic (Cumberbatch was insanely good, and the Enterprise crew has a chemistry that juet feels right).
The audience actually clapped and cheered when Harrison said his real name, as well as a huge applause when Nimoy appeared on screen.
This film, to me, actually eclipses 2009 a little due to the feel and pacing of it, and I absolutely LOVE the 2009 movie!
A couple of things:
-For those who feel that the soundtrack is pretty much the same, I suggest you listen to both soundtracks - although there are some similarities to 2009, it is virtually a completely different soundtrack.
-For those who said that the scene leading up to Kirk in the warp core was word for word taken from TWOK, I suggest you go back and watch TWOK. A couple of lines were the same, but it was in no way word for word the same.
Yep, me too. Either I missed something, or it was badly explained. Which part of the plan was whose? Or which parts were unplanned?
The way I read it initially was that Marcus unthawed Khan purely so he could work on his weapons/war strategies. Khan wanted his crew back, but Marcus wouldn't allow it, so Khan blew up the datacentre and attacked the captains' conference, then escaped, knowing that Marcus would retaliate by firing his torpedoes at Khan on Kronos (presumably this wouldn't kill them, if they were still alive). But that raises the question, if Khan could hide his crew in the torpdoes, why would he not just unthaw them? He must have had access, he did it in secret, but he couldn't unthaw them? Actually, doesn't he say that he didn't know if they were even alive? That doesn't make sense, then.
So, second possible scenario: Marcus planned the bombing and the attack, Khan was following his orders. He wanted an excuse to launch at attack on Kronos because he wanted to provoke a war with the Klingons in order to force Starfleet to become more military-focused. Khan wasn't denied access to his frozen crew but he did secretly put them in the torpedoes because he ultimately wanted to double-cross Marcus and take control himself. Of course, this means Khan would have to assume that Marcus would double-cross Khan by trying to kill him with torpedoes, and this also means that Marcus intentionally let himself get fired upon at the captain's conference, which seems pretty reckless to me.
Third possible scenario is somewhere inbetween: the bombing was Marcus's idea but the attack at the conference wasn't. Firing the torpedoes was a genuine act of revenge.
Or the fourth possibility, which, as the film was unfolding, I genuinely thought would happen: everything was Marcus's plan. He planned the bombing, he planned the attack, he put Khan's crew in the torpedoes as a way to secretly deliver them back to Khan without Starfleet knowing about it, with the ultimate goal of... well, that's where I don't have an answer. They could have gone with "he wanted Khan and his men to provoke the Klingons into a war", but there must be easier ways of doing that!
Did Marcus even WANT to provoke a war? He sends Kirk to bomb Kronos because he wanted the Klingons to blame Kirk for it. He purposely suggested a stealth attack so as to NOT provoke a war, even after Kirk suggested just going straight to Kronos anyway.
Quite honestly, I can't figure out either Marcus or Khan's motives in this film, beyond vaguely wanting power for themselves. It's as if there HAD to be a certain sequence of events, certain things had to happen, but they couldn't find a convincing way to make it happen, so it's just glossed over with woolly motives.
Can anyone explain this? Was I not paying attention?
I love how you people find the few reviews that didn't fully enjoy the movie and go SEEE SEE?!! WE'RE RIGHT! It's hilarious.
This is why i love the internets
Well, it is limited in ways that I pointed out. They didn't have a lot of money or time, and the script itself was to some extent dictated by Montalban's availability (hence the fact that he and Shatner never have a scene together on the stage).
I didn't say it wasn't "well acted." I said that most of these guys are better actors than those guys, and several of them have more opportunity to demonstrate it in this one.
Who gives a shit? I've seen it, the reviews are meaningless now.
Based on the dialogue in the movie, Khan's ship wasn't a gunship, it was a little jump ship with no warp capability. Spock was surprised that a terrorist would commandeer such a ship. So it doesn't sound like the kind of craft that would raise an alert.
Remember, there are little jump ships flying all over the place in the 24th century, issuing an alert in San Franciso for this ship after the archive bombing in London would be the same as issuing an alert for cars in Canberra after the Boston Marathon bombing. I've seen people complain that Khan was just able to shoot up the meeting without there being any response, but Pike immediately calls for air defense and there are about 5 ships there within about a minute.
But it was all over so quickly.
I imagined him saying all that while going like this
You really did quite spectacularly miss most of the movie.
I might be overly nit picky on this, I guess my comparison is 9/11 and how all normal traffic (in our case foot, car, helicopters, commercial planes) was diverted away from sensitive targets. I would have thought they would have done the same thing.
But it is not a real big deal, the key point was Pike was killed (I admit to hoping he was badly wounded and would end up beeping once or twice), Kirk got the ship back, gave him an emotional reason to go after Kahn, plus the scene itself was cool.
Caught it last night.
Effing Amazing! Great action movie with a lot of heart.
When I wasa a teen, Trek movies were mostly about a middle-aged man going through a mid-life crisis. This is not that story. It's a great story of how Kirk TRULY becomes the captain of the Enterprise, and what he learns about himself along the way.
I was grinning from beginning to end. The actors nail the parts. It felt like old Trek, but the action made it feel like it was on steroids.
IMO - If ST09 is 'Batman Begins', then STID is 'The Dark Knight'.
And just what's your problem with that, young man?
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