Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Cara007, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral


    You're not alone. I find the scene in STID far more compellingly acted (and I find Spock's scream much more appropriate in-story than Kirk's in TWOK). And lest anyone think I'm some sort of newbie--been watching Trek since 1973 (when it was on WLVI-56 out of Boston on Saturday nights).

    Curse you for not accepting that the writers of Abrams' Trek films are talentless hacks who clearly know nothing of the essence of "true Trek". :lol::lol::lol:
     
  2. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Your post is sort of muddled, but nothing you describe fits the definition of "breaking the fourth wall"....

    ... nor does this.

    Do you suppose that point could have been made just as well without using a term like "JJ apologist"? It seems unnecessary.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    No-one broke the fourth wall in Into Darkness, and I thought the reversed death scene was excellently done - right up until Spock yelled "KHAAAAAAN!" which was going a bit too far (it reminded me of the overdone uses of "Kneel before Zod!" in Smallville) - but even that didn't ruin it and was just about in character for this Spock, who when similarly pushed to his limit screamed (albeit wordlessly) when attacking the Vulcan bully at school and Kirk on the bridge in the last movie.

    What detractors see as a "hackish rip-off" I see as an awesome alternate universe version of an event. It wasn't the end of the Kirk and Spock friendship as in WoK, it was Spock's realization of their friendship... just too late (or not, in both cases)
     
  4. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    (EDIT: The OP uses the term "fourth wall" but what I think Cara007 really means is "suspension of disbelief." If a scene pulls you out of immersion and reminds you that you're just watching a bunch of people on a set, what's being broken is your suspension of disbelief.)

    I don't think the scene fails because either Pine or Quinto are "imitating" the older scene. Pine is still his own Kirk throughout it... and I do think Pine's Kirk is under-appreciated by too many, it takes serious chops to be recognizable as a version of the old character without impersonating Shatner. Quinto convincingly sells the level of fury it would take to break through Spock's reserve, and in terms of delivery he makes the "KHAAANN!" yell entirely his own. As a unit unto itself its reasonably well-directed and well-acted and well-shot. On that level I'll be honest, I enjoyed it.

    Where the scene falls down is dramatically and structurally, because it isn't really earned. The TWoK scene it's calling back to was the culmination of not just a long screen relationship, but a long in-continuity relationship. You can sort of handwave and make a case that Pine and Kirk's Spock would have had time to develop similar bonds within a year, but it's harder to believe in realistic terms... and suspending disbelief that far effectively puts the scene in frame with old Trek and points up the fact that nuTrek has a Star Wars-style conception of relationships, in which the characters interact like they were always-already old buddies because the plot requires it and regardless of circumstance. (It also doesn't help its impact that we know right away they have to reverse Kirk's death, because there's no way they're not planning to have another movie.)

    So I understand why so many people reacted to it the way they did. (And I have to agree with JarodRussell that the "Khan reveal" was pretty awful. Basically it looked like there were a couple of moments where Cumberbatch was directed to deliver Pure Awesome Eeeeevil -- "no ship should go down without her captain" was another -- and the result both times was awful mugging that seemed out of place with the rest of his performance. I was reminded a bit in the latter moment of the Emperor in ROTJ: "this fully-armed and operational Battle Station!")
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  5. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    That's the kind of read I got from the line. He's prideful, arrogant. To him, his name should matter, should cause awe and reverence cause he's Khan. Everyone knows Khan, everyone fears, Khan. It's a "do you know who you're fucking with?" moment.
     
  6. Yanks

    Yanks Commodore Commodore

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    Harrison revealing himself as Khan was incredibly well done by Cumby.

    I didn't want Khan in the movie at all and I thought Cumby hit it out of the park.

    The guy was phenominal.

    Yup, take it from an Enterprise fan. This is the worst part about chatting on mesage boards. Both Gushers & Haters trying to justify thier existence.

    I don't think so. Hell, in ST09 nuSpock loses his mother and his entire planet and doesn't break out and cry like a baby.

    He loses someone he's been at odds with for 1/2 the time they've known each other and that puts him over the top?

    See that's the issue with me. I don't want "boy, how can we twist this situation seen in TOS or the TOS Movies" crap in our nuTrek.

    I want some new stories and different situations to put our heroes through.

    I will give a huge nod to Pine's acting though. He was very good, not only in this scene but throughout the entire movie.
     
  7. Yanks

    Yanks Commodore Commodore

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    Folks seem to forget the rest of the "speech" to Kirk.

    It's all explained, but, and myself was included in this the first time I saw the movie, I didn't "hear" the rest because I didn't want to. I was pissed.

    I didn't want him to be Khan.
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can buy an egotist who was infamous at one point on Earth's history with the whole Eugenics Wars things, spouting out his name as if he expected everyone to know it... not just the audience.

    Oh and Yanks... if no one explained it to you, Breaking the Fourth Wall is basically when characters on a show talk directly to the audiences. Sitcoms will use it for comedic effect now and again.
     
  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    McCoy broke the fourth wall at the end of "Journey to Babel" - looking directly into the camera and saying, "Whaddya know, I finally got the last word!"
     
  10. Yanks

    Yanks Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks. I saw M'Sharak's link too.
     
  11. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    Kirk and Spock were re-actng a scene done before. it was not original and the fact that it was not original is kind of breaking the 4th wall for me.

    The khan scream goes further to break the 4th wall because Shatner had done it first.

    It is obvious that the writers did not write Spock screaming khan out of rage, they wrote it because Shatner did it in WOK and they felt they needed to put that in Into Darkness in one way or another.





    When you have all this in your head. you remember that you are watching a movie and the characters are not real. whih is why to me I felt the 4th wall was broken.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  12. Opus

    Opus Commodore Commodore

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  13. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    You seem to have missed that whole conversation in the shuttle on the way to Kronos.
    The writers have their character explain here exactly why he snaps later on.

    So, yes, "that" (the death of a colleague and friend with whom Spock worked for quite a while at that point) was the drop that..., the hair that...
     
  14. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    His mind-meld with the dying Pike is also meant to put another piece in place. The argument the script makes for that moment is actually set out fairly clearly, whether or not one finds the pieces of it believable in themselves or the whole congenial.
     
  15. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That and -- .

    In ST09 he damned near kills Kirk as all his pent-up emotions over the death of his mother come out all at once.

    In STID he knows what Kirk is going through because of his mind meld with Pike. It isn't just cold death, any more. He knows Kirk is suffering, and can do nothing but watch.

    It also isn't grief over what was, it's grief over what won't be. Spock realizes what genuine friendship is about for the first time as Kirk is dying. In TWOK, the dying Spock professed he always had been Kirk's friend, something he may have never been so explicit about, before. In STID, Kirk tells Spock he is his friend, which is why he was willing to risk breaking the Prime Directive in order to save him. Spock now realizes the value of friendship, but he can't save Kirk.

    I'm also sure Spock didn't forget what Spock Prime told him in ST09 about Kirk and Spock needing each other and about all they could accomplish together, and how each would help define the other in amazing ways. And then it all comes to an end prematurely because of Khan. Wouldn't that cause even the most stoic person to erupt?
     
  16. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    :techman:

    All that combined with the fact that Vulcans are much more emotional that humans underneath all that logic-veneer and you get "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!!1!!!11!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!"
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I just see justifications on explaining away the Khan yell. Which is fine, it's the mindset the writers went into the movie with... how can we get Quinto to yell Khan? Forbid he did something original and defining all on his own instead of crawling further into Shatner and Nimoy's shadows.
     
  18. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He's only in their shadows if you put him there. I guess he could've yelled, "SIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNGGGHHH!" ;)

    Kirk's yell was embarrassingly silly, emotive, and out of place in TWOK. It was a take-me-out-of-the-movie laugh out loud moment the first time I saw it. Totally stupid. Spock's yell was heartfelt, sincere, and entirely appropriate in STID. I'd think the writers knew where they were going other than just wanting to throw it in.
     
  19. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Nope. That's not what "breaking the fourth wall" means.

    That's not it, either.

    Still no.

    [​IMG]

    You've latched onto a term used to describe a specific theatrical device and assigned it a different meaning. You may not have liked the scene—that is indeed within your prerogative as a viewer—but you shouldn't call it something it really isn't and expect that claim to be accepted without question.
     
  20. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Nah, that honour goes to "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier".