Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Cara007, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    In the scene where Chris and Zach re-act the famous goodbye and death scene from wrath of khan, did anybody else feel they broke character when they were acting?

    I just rewatched the film on DVD and for some weird reason when I was watching Kirk's death scene, I did not see Kirk and Spock , I saw Chris and Zach trying to act out a scene from a past Star Trek film.

    When Kirk put his hand on the glass. I felt like the Director just yelled AAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDD ACTION and Chris Pine put his hand on the glass to do the Vulcan salute. I just did not see Kirk in that scene. I saw Chris Pine trying to be William Shatner's Kirk.


    I know most people say the Khan yell was too much, If I where to say Quinto was paying homage to Shatner that will be an understatement.


    Perhaps this is one of the downside of trying to do a homage. Instead of you seeing the new characters in a familiar place like the reverse death scene or them repeating a famous dialogue like Quinto screaming KHANNNNNNNNN.

    What you see is brand new actors trying to respectfully imitate a classic scene beloved by many.

    The whole homage scene including the Khan scream was just too much. It broke the 4th wall for me and just reminded me that Star Trek is fiction.;)


    I have no doubt that if the writers can go back in time. they will write the script differently.
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Despite all the flaws of the scene, it might have worked in spite of itself if they didn't handwave Kirk's death a few minutes later.
     
  3. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No fourth wall.

    Just a questionable use of an iconic scene. Which I have now gotten used to.
     
  4. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Captain Captain

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    Dunno about the fourth wall, but there was one shot of that scene I didn't agree with. When Kirk's hand drops dead, you could just cut to Spock or the reactions of others. The shot of his hand dropping was enough to show that he died, I didn't need to see Kirk's dead eyes looking away from Spock right after, it felt out of place. I was thinking during that moment "wow, nice touch Abrams", but then we see Kirk and his dead eyes, "oh".
     
  5. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I thought Kirk's death and Pike's death were much more real death looking than we have previously seen in Trek.
     
  6. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Captain Captain

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    Curious observation, what makes it more real for you?
     
  7. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    Perhaps if the death was done differently. Maybe kirk not dying on the ship. what I would have love instead of the khan scream was to have a silent moment with spock holding kirk's body just for him to walk away in anger on his face behind kirk's body and still have the movie silent. No screaming.

    That would have been better off than having a remake of WOK.

    The thing is, no matter how good an homage is, it will always be an homage and would ever grip you as much as the original.

    Kirk dying was not to prove anything substantial to the film. It was about the writers feeling the need to pay tribute to classic trek. that knowledge alone takes away the authenticity of kirk's death and I am not even mentioning the fact that he was brought back 5 minutes later.
     
  8. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The 4th wall was almost breached when Cumberbatch revealed himself as Khan. Like he expected them to know him because they saw Space Seed and TWOK.
     
  9. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No fourth wall was breached by any definition of the term I'm aware of. The scene wasn't a recreation of anything. It was it's own unique scene sharing only the coincidence that Kirk dies in a similar way to how Spock died in TWOK. As far as Spock's death scene in TWOK goes, I hate to say this, but I certainly don't see how it's iconic. Actually, I find it less heartfelt and less moving than Kirk's death scene in STID was. True feelings and emotions were expressed between Kirk and Spock in that scene. Kirk was scared. Spock was enraged. Emotions like that didn't happen in TWOK. I'm probably in a small minority on that, but there it is.
     
  10. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    :lol:

    Yeah, I kind of agree with this. The way he delivers that line is kind of ridiculous, as if the reveal of his name is actually supposed to mean something to Kirk.
     
  11. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    yeah, that as well. I felt he just told the audience an inside joke. we the audience knew who khan was when the characters themselves aka Kirk and Spock did not know him...lol.
     
  12. GameOn

    GameOn Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    At times it feels like the movie is either self parody or badly written fan fiction.
     
  13. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or, he revealed his name as if he is a very proud warrior finally unshackled from his ordeal under Marcus. He's full of himself. He knows he's formidable. People were once in awe of him. When he says his name, he probably even feels in awe of himself.

    See what I did there? A valid explanation within the theme and context of the character that works just as well as believing it was a shallow inside joke by hack writers.
     
  14. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But don't you appreciate the comedy of Kirk not giving a shit as he and the background music are giving their best to make him care? The whole scene reminds me of those comedy bits where somebody says something threatening in a deep voice as dramatic music is playing, and those being threatened to seem untouched by the performance. It is clear that whoever is responsible for that scene had his tongue in his cheek the entire time.
     
  15. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What is the "fourth wall"?

    My hardspot with STID.

    Totally our of character for Spock and letting Kirk die when everyone in the universe knew he wasn't going to stay dead was misguided IMO.

    Oh, and I have no doubt that they would do the same thing again and we can look forward to some other "homage" in the next movie.

    In their opinion, we are short sighted in not thinking this was tremendous writing.

    I was going to place STID in the top3 trek films until the role-reversal rip-off of TWOK.

    I've accepted Khan, but not this scene.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  16. 22 Stars

    22 Stars Commodore Commodore

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    A fine attempt as a JJ apologist and rationalizer. I see what you tried to do!
     
  17. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You are free to have and express your take, but I couldn't disagree more.

    K&S in TWoK had a longtime relationship. In STID they have not.

    You don't have to have "Kirk scared" & "Spock engraged and crying" to have a meaning emotional scene.

    Kirk didn't express true emotions in TWoK? Really? Why, because he's not a babbling teared up mess?

    Spock is so out of character in this scene it's not funny.
     
  18. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If Abrams had Cumberbatch turn straight into the camera, stare, and say, "My name, is Khan," to the audience in all his 3D glory, then the fourth wall would've been broken.

    As far as further rationalization goes, here's a man who ruled nations. For the last year, he's probably never even said his real name out loud, certainly not to any other individual. Now, he's confessed his full past to Kirk and finally builds to revealing who he really is for the first time in a year. So, my next rationalization (I'd say plausible explanation) is he's saying it defiantly. It probably feels good to reveal himself and finally say his real name out loud openly and without fear, whether Kirk knows who he is or not.

    However, I guess that couldn't have been an intent of the writers or director, as they apparently don't think that deeply.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Or it could be that someone simply liked the movie and felt the scene worked?

    Or do you consider yourself an "apologist" and "rationalizer" every time you like something someone else doesn't?
     
  20. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Out of character with the Spock from the '09 film? - No.

    Out of character with the Spock from TOS? Perhaps. But then... "THE WOMEN!"
     

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