Star Trek Insurrection the Dominion War??

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by los2188, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm just curious. I've heard it mentioned once before, but I never actually read any serious discussions about this, but should Insurrection have been something involving the Dominion War? Maybe a movie meant to close the Dominion War. Possibily brining in a few DS9 characters to finish the war? I can't say that I would have been for that direction at the time the movie was released because I wasn't in to DS9, but hind-sight being 20/20, now I would have LOVED to have seen it. What does anyone else think? I apologize if this thread has been discussed.
     
  2. 22 Stars

    22 Stars Commodore Commodore

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  3. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    1) The general public, including the masses who helped make TNG one of the most popular shows of its time, didn't watch DS9, and had no clue what the Dominion War was.

    2) Paramount didn't allow for big Trek movie budgets.

    3) It'd have been very difficult to align a feature, which can take years to produce, with a series churning out sixteen or so hours of content (not counting commercials and credits) every year.
     
  4. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree. Add to this that the wider world hadn't necessarily caught up to the USA in terms of DS9 broadcasts, and the ongoing Dominion conflict might have made for quite a confusing story on it's own. Some international markets were still only up to DS9 seasons three and four at the time.
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Movies need big audience to succeed. Finishing off a DS9 plotline in a film would have been a very bad idea, since DS9 was heavily serialized and most of the casual moviegoing public wouldn't have a clue whats going on. And if you retell the story and details of the war in the movie so as not to alienate moviegoers and then win it, you render the entirely of the Deep Space Nine series pointless!

    The alternative, telling a random disposable standalone "side story" set during the war while DS9 won all the main battles is a complete waste. Think of the early Babylon 5 stand alone TV movies, set during the ongoing story but having no impact whatsoever on them. They were utterly pointless. At most such a TNG war story would end with "Yay we won this battle which is ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things."

    Ignoring DS9 (except for a few thowaway references) was the best choice they could have made. Just wish the story they did tell was less shit.
     
  6. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    I think they could have started the movie rather like Star Wars, myself. "The Federation is embroiled in a conflict.... yada yada yada."
     
  7. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They could still have done that:

    It is a time of civil war... Rebel spaceships strike from a hidden base... meanwhile, on the Enterprise, Captain Picard is wearing a funny hat.

    ;)

    Wasn't there some implication that those funny hat guys at the very start of the movie were supposed to be potential allies in the dominion conflict, which is why the Federation was courting them? I wonder what they were going to bring to the table in the war?
     
  8. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    all very good points.

    INS went the right route in not telling a Dominion war story. Unfortunately, crappy writing sank the movie, not the idea to ignore the war.
     
  9. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Captain Captain

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    I would have loved a more Dominion War based movie.
    But more in the line of Picard freeing Betazoid or something.
    You don't have to explain the whole DW, but perhaps in a little opening like DS9 did with "emissary".
    Like with "The wrath of Khan", you didn't first have to watch "space seed" to understand the movie.
     
  10. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    By that standard, almost every World War II movie is meaningless and a waste. :)

    Done properly, I think the audience could have understood a standalone Dominion War movie with the TNG cast. Audiences understand that they're not getting the totality of World War I in All Quiet on the Western Front or the totality of World War II in Tora! Tora! Tora! or Saving Private Ryan. Audiences don't get the complete picture of the Civil War in Gettysburg. A TNG Dominion War movie could have worked in the same way.
     
  11. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Maybe, but most WW2 movies aren't about Patton or MacArthur. And it actually makes sense to keep the fleet's flagship and Picard largely out of harm's way, because losing either or both of 'em could've been a huge morale sapper.
     
  12. arch101

    arch101 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They could have done a really good war film about the Enterprise freeing an occupied Vulcan, a world populated by people known to non-fans. Even better, they could have gotten Nimoy involved as Old Spock would have been of help. Worf and maybe another DS9 cast member (O'Brien?) could have been dispatched on Defiant to help. There - you've got TOS, TNG and DS9 represented in one film without too much trouble. Missed opportunity.
     
  13. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I continue to be amazed at fans that kill Insurrection for being too small and to light, but also don't like Nemesis. I think it's because they are supposed to hate Nemesis. Shinzon is exactly like Nero. He's exactly like Khan. He is conflicted about what he wants to do with Picard, because just like Jean-Luc, he longs for family. It has space battles, it has special effects, and the stake is earth itself. See the death at the beginning of the movie? That's what will happen to earth. So if it's just about the stakes, I don't see how you can criticize both.
     
  14. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Captain Captain

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    Well Kahn didn't long for a family.
    And Nemesis was a dumb action movie, slaves build a powerfull ship that can defeat the federation starship with ease, the dumb ramming scene, the Scimitar had 70% of shields left.
    It's like in WWII the jews get out of the concentration camps and build a huge tank that can take on almost anything the German's have
     
  15. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Dominion War. He was given access because he fought major engagements in the war, I believe 8. He was a General before he came to power, before he freed the Remans. The meat of the story is whether Picard would be this man if he hadn't had his upbringing. Jean-Luc seems to think it's innate, his goodness. And, therefore, he can reach Shinzon. Shinzon is searching for his place in the galaxy. He finds comforts with the Remans, but he's not Reman. That's an old story, but one that's more intelligent than Generations' "I don't want to get old" story. Or "let's dominate the planet in the past" story of First Contact.
     
  16. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Well, if the mass audience doesn't know what the Dominion War is, by all means let that be a license to discount continuity. The problem with directions like that is that you're not making your story set in a vast continuity important, you're making it out of place and overall forgettable. Nothing gained, nothing earned.

    Why not open the film Star Wars style by giving a text explanation on what the Federation and the rest of the galaxy have been up to? Star Trek has done it before.

    They came from an unexplored region of the galaxy.
    A force known as the dominion has declared war on the Federation.
    With the recent Borg attack, the Federation's numbers are thin and their allies scattered.

    And if audiences like what they see in the Dominion, they'll have an entire series that focuses on the Dominion.
     
  17. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Which would make sense when Shinzon was hated by the Romulans and left in the mines to die.

    And that amounted to what? The old, tired "I will kill you!" schtick. You would think that Picard's artificial heart would have given Picard a tangible example on how events of one's life can change how their entire perspective, but no. Picard actually says that Shinzon's heart is the same as his.

    Since Shinzon is the ruler of the Romulan and Reman Empire and controls one of the most powerful ships in Star Trek, I think his place in the galaxy is solidified. How much better can a man get than going from slave to ruler over your oppressors?

    Except that there was more to First Contact than just "dominate the planet in the past". It was a tale of a Captain going to great lengths for vengeance against a foe that violated and used him in the past. It wasa also about a man who cannot see past his own selfish ambitions and what effect his actions will have on the future of humanity. And my personal favorite, a story about a man who long believed that humanity was so perfect that they would one day be like angels and gods and that their past selfs were so infantile and self-destructive, soon turned into something worse. And the real kicker? It took one of those people to show how infantile and self-destructive he had become.
     
  18. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Had they wanted to do a movie that ended the Dominion War it should've been a DS9 movie, TNG had nothing to do with the Dominion or the war. I do like how the E-E was kept on the sidelines, doing all the public relations stuff, kept away from the fighting more for morale back home than anything else--though it did seem pretty pointless to have such a large, well-armed ship doing milk runs (but a bit of propaganda is necessary from time to time).
     
  19. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And it was a ripoff, a tired comparison to Moby Dick. The second such movie, in Star Trek, to do so. I don't find that at all interesting. I hate First Contact because it ruins the Borg by giving us someone to talk to. They tell Zephrame Cochrane exactly who he will be in the future. And it amounts to the darkest of the Trek movies. If they had just told the story of the first launch without Picard and company becoming involved, I could understand that. I would like that movie. But this didn't do that. It was a cheap, ordinary Star Trek movie.

    As for whether Shinzon should be made a General, he was supposed to die and they found he was a great tactician. Remember, the Remans were used as "cannon fodder" during the war. The Romulans wanted to win the war more than they wanted to oppress the Remans. AND he's not Reman, he's a human.
     
  20. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Probably because Picard told Starfleet that when he was inside the Nexus, he tried to convince Guinan to come help him in a fist fight that he lost.