Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by JediKnightButler, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    The scene was filmed, but not used. Toward the end of the movie Quark (of all people) shows up and anounces that he is indeed going to open a spa somewhere on the planet, so people can come for the health benefits of the rings. Picard tell him that he (the guy who make all important decisions in the Federation) will not allow any spas on the planet.

    Non-canon of course, never made he final cut.

    Why would any facilities have to be "low tech?" Having modern 24th century mega-cities on the planet shouldn't interfere with the incoming radiation.

    Again why?

    However, the ring planet is in fact Federation property. Also there is no indication in the movie that the Baku ever formed themselves into a state. Given that they are living on someone else's planet, how could they? It was the Romulan's, then the Klingon's, then the Federation's.

    Never was it the Baku's.

    :)
     
  2. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, California
    It's negated by the fact that the Son'a didn't disclose that they and the Bak'u were the same species until Picard and Co. were already insurrectin' and it was a moot point. Had they mentioned that before, it would have been an internal matter and the Federation should not be involved under the terms of the PD, but since it looked like a hostile technologically advanced species invading a helpless non-technological species from Picard's perspective (though one familiar with warp and other advanced tech, thus satisfying the other PD concern as well), he was well within his rights to act on their behalf since they invited him to stay and help them reach the caves.

    Christ almighty. You clearly didn't even read what I wrote before leaping in with a reply and guessing at what my point was. Not once did I compare the metaphasic particles to oil. In fact, I didn't even mention oil, because that was not the primary motive behind the invasion of Iraq from PNAC's perspective; spreading "American values" and "pacifying" the Middle East one nation at a time was.

    I laid out point for point where the comparison between Iraq and the Bak'u situation was, and lest you forget, YOU were the one asking why people were comparing your stance to neo-con principles, which is why I responded by comparing it to the most recent neo-con motivated conflict.

    Of course boundaries and borders have been redrawn throughout history, but we (and the Federation even more so) are supposed to evolve beyond the need to expand through conflict and subjugation of minorities and vastly outnumbered and outgunned villagers. You can expand through peaceful means as well, such as the European Union, and that's the model one should aspire to, not forcibly relocating people from their homeworld like a thief in the night and condemning them to an earlier death.

    Or, you can work with the villagers to find a compromise that benefits both parties, such as the one I propose about allowing settlers on other parts of the planet for rehabilitation as long as they follow the Bak'u rules.

    You're advocating that the strong should conquer the weak and take their things, leaving them nothing. It's an inherently amoral concept, no matter how much you try and rationalize it and state that it's done with the best of intentions.

    You don't think drastically shortening the lifespans of a nigh immortal society where people apprentice for decades under an expert before taking over the job themselves will "change their government" and society?
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    First, it difficult to see how you consider the estrangement of the Baku and the Sona to be a matter that falls under the Prime Directive.

    Second, the Federation wasn't involved as a player in that matter. Remember the Federation's involvement was solely as the the possessors of the planet and the region surrounding it, who wanted to extract a natural resource. The Sona possess the technology to do so. This is where the Federation's involvement comes to a crashing end.

    The Sona/Baku thing was a separate issue, that was none of the Federation's business. This is why I think that after the Council's review, they would have reaffirmed their original decision to harvest the particles.

    With the exception of Picard and his immediate crew, everyone in the movie knew the Baku were not a "non-technological species." And it wasn't an invasion by any meaning of the term. It was a Federation planet.

    Locutus of Bored, where in the movie did they ever invite Picard to stay? He simply arrived with boxes of weapons and stated giving instructions/orders.

    This would be the part where Picard employs the Baku children as human shields. Picard could have transferred the children to the Enterprise prior to it's departure, also the "Captain's gig" could have remove at least some of the children. Picard brought a considerable amount of weapons to the surface, he was expecting trouble.

    :)
     
  4. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    where it hurts
    The PD has been used more than once to block the Federation from interfering in the internal affairs of another society--namely, blood feuds like that between the Son'a and Ba'ku.

    The Federation was involved well beyond that. They were going to move 600 non-citizens to another planet without their knowledge. That sort of deception is beneath the Federation.

    And, what, kill the Ba'ku? So much for a benevolent union of worlds.

    All that was stated in the movie is that it was a "planet in Federation space." That does not make it "a Federation planet." Those are separate distinctions. The Ba'ku settled it first. By any reasonable legal definition, it's the Ba'ku's planet (and arguably the Son'a's, too.)

    Come on, saying Picard used children as human shields is just nasty hyperbole.

    Why no one was evacuated is a fair point, but then the Ba'ku were probably not amenable to having any of their people taken from the surface. Let's face it, they were distrustful of the Federation and had an ongoing conflict with the Son'a. They probably figured that anyone who was taken from the planet would never be able to return--a perfectly legitimate concern from the Ba'ku's standpoint. "Oh yeah, sure, we'll protect your kids on the Enterprise. You can trust us." I can see the Ba'ku not believing such an offer as genuine, after the Federation deceived them.
     
  5. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    your post sort of leads to an odd moral for the story: you admit that the Baku and Son'a dispute was an internal one, and that only Dougherty's bringing the Federation in made Picard's interference not a violation of the PD. Fair enough.

    So again, the big blunder here was the Son'a being reasonable and diplomatic in trying to work with the UFP and in bothering with this elaborate plan. RU'AFO WAS RIGHT! The mission WAS one "Federation disaster after another."

    Ru'afo should have told the truth to Dougherty from the beginning, sought permission to enter Federation space, removed the Baku with no ceremony or deception, and then shared the resources with the Federation, while promising Dougherty that the Federation would have plausible deniability and wouldn't be involved in doing anything to the Baku.


    Again, an odd moral for the story: the Son'a were too willing to be cooperative, when really they should have taken care of the Baku themselves, giving Picard no reason to intervene.
     
  6. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    where it hurts
    It was indeed an internal dispute, however the Ba'ku were content to live their lives in seclusion without ever bothering anyone. The Son'a wanted to harvest the radiation for themselves and remain a spacebound civilization. If we take Federation involvement as a foregone conclusion, the known facts indicate that the Ba'ku were never violent or hostile toward the Son'a who rebelled--in fact, they welcomed some of them back with open arms once the hostilities were over. Ru'afo's sect tried to assume leadership for themselves, and were exiled for it. The Ba'ku were in the right, as far as that goes.

    I believe I said before that it was a calculated risk on his part, undertaken mainly to get access to the planet without the Federation treating his fleet as hostile.

    I doubt the Federation would have been inclined to grant Ru'afo anything at all, considering that the Son'a were a known Dominion ally, and he basically would've been asking the Federation to enable him in carrying out a personal vendetta. Their response more likely would have been, "Are you fucking kidding? No, you're not going to waltz through our space so you can kick your parents off their planet and use its magical radiation to heal yourselves. You helped the Dominion, for crying out loud. You'd probably just as soon slaughter them all. GTFO our territory." Instead, he approached the Federation with a deal that offered them something extremely tantalizing, and no doubt portrayed it as a very simple operation that could be completed quickly and with a minimum of fuss.

    If not for Data being there, the Enterprise never would've been involved, and yes, Ru'afo probably would've just exterminated the Ba'ku and either taken over the planet or used the collector. The Federation can hardly be blamed for not stopping an atrocity they didn't even know was going to happen.
     
  7. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    well we disagree on how "pure" powers at war can afford to be. Ru'afo was offering Dougherty a potential key to victory at NO COST to the UFP. Drug-suppliers to the Dominion or not, Dougherty would have been a fool not to take the Son'a deal.
     
  8. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Location:
    Kansas City
    I, for one, question how the Federation could lay claim on a planet they hadn't made official contact with and claimed it SO MUCH that they felt it was their "right" to relocate the population of the planet in order to "restore them to their natural evolution" when the people on the planet got there before there even WAS a Federation. It seemed like a convenient re-interpretation of their rules and something Roddenberry always thought humans had "evolved past" by the 24th century so everything that happens in the movie, as far as the Federation is concerned, is against the very nature of the universe.
     
  9. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    I know the film states that they were exiled, but based on how readily the Ba'ku welcome them back at the end of the film it seems more like a self-exile. They tried to take over the colony (including a return to technology), were found to be in the minority, and subsequently left. It seems as if the Ba'ku would not have kicked them off the planet if the Son'a simply abandoned their plans to use technology.

    As another poster upthread stated, the Ba'ku had very simple rules for their planet: No technology. They would probably have been receptive to offworlders if they had been asked, but no one bothered to ask.

    As far as the Federation establishing a "spa" or rehab colony on the planet, it would probably have to be governed under the local laws of the Ba'ku, including no technology. That would limit the number of Federation citizens interested in making the planet a home. Being that the planet was in the Briar Patch and not very hospitable to travel in the first place, it makes sense why the Federation agreed to the particle theft plan. They (wrongly) figured no one would want to live on that crappy planet anyway.
     
  10. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    where it hurts
    There is absolutely no evidence that the metaphasic radiation represented a significant strategic wartime advantage for the Federation.

    It's actually unclear when the film takes place in relation to the Dominion War, though it is implied that it takes place after said conflict--in which case wartime strategy is not a concern. As an argument, I consider this a red herring.

    And you saying there is "NO COST" doesn't mean there isn't one. There is absolutely a cost to the Ba'ku.
     
  11. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    It seemed to me that Dougherty was lying to the Federation council. They're off on Earth or wherever, he's there making decisions, and providing them with bad information. He didn't seem like a very nice guy.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    Actually I wonder if the Ba'ku would actually care what tech level the federation people living on the planet would have under an greement as long as they just didn't live in the valley.

    Plus the radiation wouldn't be that much of a game changer since it doesn't do jack for phaser/energy weapon blasts, exploding consoles, exploding ships, other exploding things, or getting blown into space.

    Not to mention the political issues over the federation's allies wanting a piece of this magic radition. becuase this sounded like a federtion only kind of thing from how Dougherty was talking about it.

    Not to mention how easiy it was for Ru'afo to talk him into attacking up the Enterprise.
     
  13. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    seriously? You don't consider a resource that can double the life-span of soldiers or heal all kinds of battlefield injuries and conditions to be a "significant advantage?"

    Remember that there was no indication at this point that the war would be a short one. I'm really amazed to continually read responses about how the particles wouldn't make a difference in war.
     
  14. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    where it hurts
    That the particles would be even slightly useful in a battlefield situation is a baseless assumption. What is said in the film is that the radiation "continually regenerates our genetic structure" or somesuch, which would make it useful for, yes, attacking cancers, and enhancing longevity. Healing wounds? That has nothing to do with genetic damage, so the particles would be useless for that.
     
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    OK, I guess you're right on that, I didn't remember that particular line. Still, doubling the life-span of your soldiers and adding to the pool of those who can serve by curing genetic problems and therefore greatly increasing the number of those available to serve in combat is still a huge advantage. Just because the war ended up being a short one doesn't mean it was inevitably going to be so.

    You REALLY don't think a resource like this would be useful in a war lasting many years?
     
  16. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    where it hurts
    For not appreciating accusations of neoconservatism, I find it interesting that you see the benefits of the particles mainly in terms of how they improve military capacity. :wtf: I'm sure a peaceful organization like the Federation is desperate to have soldiers with longer lifespans so they can, presumably, wage longer wars.
     
  17. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    Not really when the federation is fighting a group that uses a race of mass produced clones that are really for combat in a matter of days and can build ships for them faster the feds can.

    It would be an almost microscopic to the point of not really being that noticeable advanatge at best.
     
  18. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    where it hurts
    That's a great point I hadn't thought of, but you're right. The Dominion can manufacture endless waves of troops on demand. The Federation would never be able to compete if we're talking about a war of attrition, which is what sonak is suggesting.
     
  19. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    Which is why I'm wondering just how the particles are supposed to be this magic bullet that will help the Federation win the war.
     
  20. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    I'm bringing this up because the events of the movie take place during a war, so of course the military application of it is relevant.