Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by JediKnightButler, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    1. claiming that the medical technology is "dubious" is a way of rigging the argument in your favor. There is nothing in the movie to indicate that the procedure wouldn't work as advertised.

    2. Self-determination and sovereignty aren't being threatened here, PROPERTY is. The Baku would have simply been relocated to have sovereignty and self-determination on a different planet, they would have remained independent and sovereign, it wasn't an issue of conquest. So the "values clash" you refer to is actually that of the property rights of a few vs. the vastly greater good of the many.

    3 the "Baku weren't asked" argument is one that gets brought up a lot, but it's kind of a silly one. There is a point in this movie when they realize exactly why they are being faced with removal, and they give no indication that they would consider doing so. The argument is basically a technicality-yes, there was never a point where Dougherty went down to the planet and directly asked "would you voluntarily relocate so that we can get this resource? We will find you a new planet and give you compensation."

    It is however, pretty clear from the Baku attitude in the movie that they would have said no.
     
  2. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    It's dubious because it was being sold to the Federation by the Son'a, who were not the most trustworthy folks to begin with.

    "You can still have your self-determination and sovereignty, but we're going to force you to have it somewhere else." Uh, no. That right there is blatantly infringing on their right to self-determination.

    Well, why should the Federation be able to come in and demand things of the Ba'ku? That would make them bullies. A supposedly enlightened culture would be willing to engage in negotiation and compromise. Maybe the Ba'ku wouldn't want to be moved, but would be willing to allow the Federation to set up an orbital research station to the study the rings and determine how to duplicate their effects. But since the Federation opted to use deception, the Ba'ku could hardly be blamed for not automatically assuming good faith.
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If sovereignty and self-determination were ever that important to the Federation, they wouldn't be pulling planets out from under their own people and using them as bargaining chips. Like seen in Journey's End.

    But the Federation government still has to do what's best for the bulk of the Federation population in any given matter.
     
  4. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    Given that it was the result of negotiation to end a lengthy, costly, bloody war, it's pretty obvious the Federation considered it a worthy trade to swap some planets with the Cardassians. Displacing Federation citizens was hardly ideal, but when the alternative was continued bloody conflict, it makes sense that you start sacrificing land in order to save lives.

    In any case, the Federation wound up letting the colonists remain, with the understanding that they would no longer be under Federation jurisdiction--again, this was a decision they were allowed to make, albeit only because they pushed back against the Federation bureaucracy.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few.
     
  6. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    Well, you know, thanks for ignoring the rest of my post, which indicated that the people still got to stay on their planets.

    And if you think repeating "the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few" is clever, here's a newsflash: it's not. It's a slogan, not a rhetorical basis for sound policy.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Your more than welcome to think what you like. But any government that isn't making decisions on what's best for their citizens really isn't doing their job.

    And as I've said many times before, the act of moving the Ba'ku (for me) has little to do with with the meta-phasic radiation itself (I've said many times before that I don't believe it's a game-changer). The act of moving the Ba'ku ensures that I don't find myself trying to protect six hundred pacifists somewhere down the road from another power trying to grab meta-phasics for themselves. Also, it ensures that if such a scenario were to arise that the Ba'ku don't get wiped out in the process. Like they nearly did at the end of Insurrection.
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Human migrants were living on a planet outside of the boundaries of the Federation, exactly how does the Federation have legal jurisdiction?

    And when the Sona brought the idea to the Federation, Starfleet's best scientific minds looked at it.

    And the Sona were truthful about the particles, where they were, and what they could do.

    Their "family problems" were a outside matter, and none of the Federation's business.

    :)
     
  9. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    no no no, the Federation is supposed to be obligated to give 24/7 protection to this small band of self-centered, hypocritical pacifists, despite them not being in Federation territory and not being citizens. They're supposed to do this out of the goodness of their hearts despite it being a completely one-sided arrangement in which the Federation gets screwed because... a government would actually agree to do something that ridiculous .:lol:
     
  10. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    wrong thread.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  11. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    You guys have sure put a lot of work into those straw men, just to tear them down. :lol:
     
  12. { Emilia }

    { Emilia } alta moda Moderator

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    That doesn't mean putting the needs of "the many" over the needs of "the few". I guess you hate protecting minorities, too. Best to just kill them all if it serves "the many" in any way?

    Government represents "everybody", not "the many". And that's why the needs of "the few" sometimes outweigh the needs of "the many". And sometimes... they don't.

    Damn, life is so complex.


    ETA: And damn, the way Sonak keeps misrepresenting and over-simplifying RobMax' nuanced opinion is just appalling. Strawmen everywhere. Just makes for a very annoying and fruitless discussion.
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Really? Surprised it took someone this long to go there...

    Government represents everyone who is part of the nation in which they govern. Since the Ba'ku are not Federation citizens, the Federation does owe them jack-shit.

    And let's not pretend this is the "trail of tears" or some other atrocity that has happened in the past. No one here is being abused, merely returned to their normal evolutionary state.


    If you or a close member of your family was in Starfleet, would you be willing to sacrifice your or their lives in order to protect six hundred people who refuse to protect themselves?

    Would you want a cure for cancer blocked because six hundred people couldn't be moved?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  14. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    It is the natural conclusion of your position. If a large group is made materially better off through the death of a smaller group, it follows that exterminating the smaller group is not only prudent and practical, it is the morally proper thing to do.

    I'd just like to say that the phrase "normal evolutionary state" indicates such an appallingly poor grasp of the mechanisms of evolution that I can scarcely believe my eyes. I could write a book on what's wrong with that statement.

    Suffice it to say, you are completely wrong on this point.

    This is nuts. First of all, Federation lives were already put at risk through the joint operation with Son'a, so that one doesn't even wash.

    Secondly, forcibly relocating people to get your cure for cancer is wrong. You're basically putting a natural resource above people's lives. Not the kind of thing a benevolent organization like the Federation ought to be pursuing.
     
  15. { Emilia }

    { Emilia } alta moda Moderator

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    I know, right?

    I'm sorry to interrupt your arrogant neo-conservative shtick, but I live in a country that starts its constitution with the sentence "Human dignity is inviolable". It doesn't say "The human dignity of the people in this country is inviolable. We owe the rest of the world jack-shit and if we need something we'll take it from you, suckers."

    And I think the phrase "All men are created equal" should ring a bell to you. It's not "All men are created equal, unless you're not American in which case we'll treat you like shit, steal your stuff and tell you: We don't owe you jack-shit."

    And that's not taking into account international agreements like the UN Carta. Which says you don't meddle in the affairs of sovereign nations. Who knows: Maybe there's some kind of interplanetary agreement on this in the Star Trek Galaxy, too.

    It's a shame you don't understand the concept of evolution. Or the fact that "culture" has in many aspects replaced "nature" in the progress of civilisations.


    Shame you deleted the "your highness" comment. I like to talk to peasants once in a while. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They were alive when they hit the planet, they will live on (as the S'ona show) long after they leave the planet. Maybe I worded it wrong, but they are simply returning to the state they were in when they landed on the planet.

    Huh?

    Your putting the property rights of six hundred people above the well being of possibly trillions of beings. How is that anymore "right"?

    EDIT: Sorry I missed this...

    Federation lives weren't at stake until Picard got involved.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Your from Germany, right? :eek:
     
  18. { Emilia }

    { Emilia } alta moda Moderator

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    No, I live there.

    But good job ignoring every single point I made. Classy.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I just hate being painted with a broad brush because I disagree with someone over a point in a movie. So you can take your "arrogant neo-conservative shtick" comment and cram it where the sun don't shine.

    And try not to judge us too harshly since your nation of residence has had a major hand in two World Wars costing millions of lives. :techman:
     
  20. { Emilia }

    { Emilia } alta moda Moderator

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    Oh, make no mistake. I knew your comment was trying to godwin the discussion. I just figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not going for such a lame cheap shot that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand or the people having it.

    I don't have to paint you with a broad brush to make your posts look shallow, petty and vile.