Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by JediKnightButler, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    you can't negate the value of the particles just by continually bringing up random scenarios where they don't help. It's just silly. It's like saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes. Well yes, you've got me there, tanks don't clean soldiers' uniforms, therefore you've shown them to be useless in a war.:rolleyes:
     
  2. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    what is this random scenario crap you keep going on about have you never watched any of the Dominion War episodes? Becuase those random scenarios are what usually happens in the battles shown which means pretty much they aren't random scenarios.

    And no the particles don't help with major injuries which was shown when the chick Picard was interested in was injured in a cave in and said to be dying, she needed federation medical tech to survive.

    So no I don't think that the particles will help in a war, mostly becuase you have done nothing to refute my point except to show that you have no idea how war works in Star Trek.

    And it is not saying that tanks don't help armies that much because after all, you can't use them to clean the soldiers' clothes.

    It is say that magic rejuvenation radiation will help soldiers except against bullets, explosives, and ect. aka what they usually deal with in combat.
     
  3. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Arguing the "medical benefits" and who ultimately gets them is really sort of pointless They really aren't what this whole thing is about. Whoever ends up with them pretty much wins ... everything. A secret like that doesn't stay a secret for very long--not like it would if it were left on a backwater planet in a remote, inhospitable part of space.

    The Son'a wouldn't have to tell the Founders. They'd find out quickly enough on their own, as would the Klingons and the Romulans and the Cardies, and the Breen, and the Tzenkethi, and whoever else is running around out there.

    This thing is so big that it's going to be contained to the Alpha either. Queen Steelpants, in her endless pursuit of perfection, will assemble her legion space zombies immediately. The Vidiians? Of course they're going to explore every dubious mean necessary to find a way to the Alpha quadrant.

    Hell, let's throw, Vulcans, Andorians, Rigelians, etc. into the mix. Because, let's be honest, when we say "Federation" in this context, we really mean "humans."

    And it isn't just about ensuring control over the particles. There's also the matter of the perceived threat they represent. Creating a Khan army is the best case scenario. At worst, we're talking bout creating an entire sub-race of demigods to whom the entire Milky Way (and probably parts of Andromeda) instantly becomes one big sandbox.

    Even The Q have to perceive this as a threat. After all, what is omnipotence if not unlimited evolutionary potential over infinite time? These particles solve the time problem, and they take a huge slice (like a few hundred millennia's worth) out of the potential pie.

    In the end, we're left with one massive slippery slope that dumps strait into a bottomless quagmire and potentially the utter annihilation of Earth. Uber panaceas would seem pretty pointless then.

    To put things into perspective, if some universe-shattering resource were discovered on Earth tomorrow, all economic and military alliances would be completely thrown out the window. Mutually assured nuclear destruction would be rendered meaningless. Basically, we'd be living in one massively fucked-up world. (Hey, I just had a great idea for a novel!)


    Anyone who doesn't understand that this scenario is not only plausible, but probable, is being naive and short-sighted. It can happen on modern day Earth, or it can happen in a mythical interstellar future.

    Really, the best course of action for all parties would have been to say "Neat!" and turn the fuck around and go home. Contain the Son'a. Want to put the "needs of the many" to good use? Shoot Ru'afo in the face. Gallatin and friends can go home, and the non-Ba'ku Son'a committed enough crimes to have them locked-up in a far-off place forever. Destroy any and all evidence the place ever existed, and hope for the best.
     
  4. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    it will enable soldiers to serve for much longer periods of time. It can heal conditions that might have prevented service before. It can bring back soldiers out of retirement to serve in battle again.

    You can continue to bring up all of the scenarios you like in which the particles won't help, but it doesn't change the obvious ways in which they WILL help.

    Saying "well they don't cure being vaporized" isn't a serious refutation, because no one is claiming that the particles will help in EVERY scenario that comes up in a war.
     
  5. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which doesn't help the federation IN A WAR unless in drags on for decades at which point the quadrant is probably pretty screwed what with wrecked planets and destroyed fleets and space stations all over the place.

    Federation science looked like it could do that just fine. And it can heal major injuries unlike the particles.

    Wherein they can still be killed by weapons which wars are fought with, so all its doing is letting the federation catch up a little in the war of attrition but not enough to void endless supply of clones and speedy shipyards.

    Which doesn't mean a whole lot when the scenarios consist of much of the fighting which if isn't addressed doesn't help the federation to win which means people get to spend their doubled lifespans in Dominion slave camps.

    No you just treat being vaporized like its no big deal and ignore that increase lifespans and doing what federation science can already largely do aren't a game changer in a conflict where people are blown to bits, shot, spaced, and all other sorts of nasty demises which are the reason war is a nasty thing.
     
  6. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    the Federation had no way of knowing at the time of INS that the war was not going to be a long one. Manpower will ALWAYS be important in a war, especially one fought over vast distances and for long periods of time. Continue to pretend that the particles wouldn't have helped as long as you feel like.
     
  7. Captain Verata

    Captain Verata Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    The admiral said some of the Son'a couldn't wait for 10 years of normal exposure which would suggest that somehow the particles used with tech would make them work faster and better.
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But many people injured like Jadzia Dax could have "gotten up again" with the help of the particles. Jadzia, after being attacked in the Temple, was taken to sick bay alive. Dying subsequently.

    Not everyone on Star Trek dies right away. Could the particle help everyone, no. But you can't say that they wouldn't help anyone. This makes them an asset.

    It's difficult to see what your point is here. If the particles have a limited duration, then the environment of the ring planet's system would have been replenishing them in some fashion. Therefor if the particle you have lose effectiveness in time, you simply return to the original source, and get more.

    However, if the particle's emissions are perpetual, then the Federation's particles will never "run out."

    Remember Hartzilla, the particles didn't run out while in orbit of the ring planet, the last thing anybody would want to do is change the particle's emissions in the process of the harvest. So the particles in orbit, are the particles after harvest.

    :)
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    While my endgame would be different, I've been preaching exactly what your saying for years now.

    Welcome to Galactic Clusterfuck 101. :techman:

    Let's just say Ru'afo and his buddies wouldn't be going home for quite a while after the project was complete. :lol:
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Again in the simulation it looked like THE. RINGS. WERE. DISINTEGRATING. As in no more rings, as in no more radiation being generated. If there are no new particles being generated because THERE ARE NO RINGS TO GENERATE THEM then that means there is only a limited supply that will eventually run out.
     
  11. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Captain William T. Ridama would be one serious bad-ass motherfucker.
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay, that would have been the (IIRC) "isolinic reaction" that allowed the particulates in orbit to be collected. This is also the source of the heat that require the Baku to be removed.

    Not quite the particales were removed. However the particale would have continued to to generate the radiation where they were taken.

    I don't think that where the new particles were originating.

    Okay, this is where you're missing something.

    It has to do with where the particale came from in the first place. They could have formed with the planet itself billions of years in the past. Which means they are billions of years old, and are permanate.

    Or, they are emitted by the systems sun, some paticales are captured by the planet's magnetic field and formed into a ring. Somewhat like our own Van Allen Radiation Belt. The majority of the particale travel outward into the Brier Patch, where they form a very thin defuse cloud.

    Or siilar to above, they originate in the Brier Patch, and are again captured.

    If the particale are permanate, then no problem with the collected particale, the Federation (and others) will have them forever.

    If the particales in the ring do age out and basically die in time, this means the particale in the ring were being "resupplied" as fast as the existing particale died.

    So when the Federation's collected particale died, they simply return to the planet and collect the new particles that the plante has captured.

    :)
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The reason for the collection was not just to gather some elixir of youth for the Son'a. An equally important reason for the operation was to ruin the fountain of youth for good, so that the Ba'ku would die of old age just like any other members of their species. I'm sure the Son'a would have made sure that the rings (or whatever the fundamental source of the health effects) would be completely destroyed, hopefully also with some painful side effects to those down on the planet.

    It was a mission of vengeance and destruction, after all, and the Son'a were the only ones who knew how the technology worked. Either they would have slipped in a destructive element or eleven without the technologically less advanced Starfleet noticing - or then they would have slipped in those elements come hell or high water, since destruction of Ba'ku happiness was a non-negotiable mission goal.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Have you even seen the movie?

    It would've went smooth as butter until Picard stuck his nose in and pissed off Ru'afo.
     
  15. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    It was explicitly stated in the film that harvesting the radiation using the Son'a collector would render the planet uninhabitable. It wouldn't just make the Ba'ku mortal, it would kill them. That's the whole reason they had to bother about trying to surreptitiously move them.
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Sure, sure. But the idea that the process would somehow leave the fountain of youth intact runs contrary to the explicit desire of the Son'a to make the Ba'ku suffer.

    We have little reason to believe that the planet needed to be rendered uninhabitable in the collection process. There might have been some truth to the Son'a needing the collector so that they would get the cure in time, but they could and would have lied about the collateral damage: a harmless collection process would probably have been perfectly possible, too, but that would have been contrary to Son'a interests.

    Sure - as long as the definition of "smooth" includes all the Ba'ku dying horribly.

    The holographic transport would never have arrived safely anywhere, that much is certain.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Man you make up some wild shit without any actual evidence to back it up.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Don't you mean you do? The idea that the Son'a would let the Ba'ku live is so out of the left field that I can't fathom how you could get it from watching this movie.

    The events progressed from lie to lie, until at the very end the truth was revealed. And the truth was that this was all a blood feud.

    "Escalated" is Picard's estimate. But consider Rua'fo's earlier words:

    Obviously, the holoship was never going to reach its destination, as the Ba'ku would then get a chance to reveal the truth to the Federation. The Son'a would know that the Ba'ku were no primitives: they could not be fooled with holograms into believing they were still on Ba'ku. And the Son'a would know the Federation would not like the truth, as well evidenced by their many threats regarding that, Dougherty's counterthreats, and the action taken against Riker's ship.

    The case appears airtight. The Son'a were out to kill, and there was no way they could not kill and still expect to survive.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    The planet would've been stripped of the radiation and the S'ona long gone by the time the Ba'ku realized anything happened.

    This is utter bullshit, Timo. No where is there any hint of this being anything other than a straight move until Picard gets involved and starts using the Ba'ku men, women and children as human shields. He came far closer to getting them killed than Ru'afo did. You might want to go and revisit the film.

    If it was about killing, the S'ona could've simply went in and wiped the Ba'ku out and set up shop in the Briar Patch and Starfleet would've never been any wiser. If you're intent on committing a crime, why complicate it far more than it needs to be?
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The Son'a had nowhere to go. Remember that Dougherty swore that Starfleet would hunt them down for their crimes - the location of the Son'a empire was apparently well known, and its military power no match for Starfleet, at least not enough to give them immunity.

    The plot necessarily involved making up some scheme for Ba'ku survival. But the plot necessarily could not tolerate the Ba'ku actually surviving. They would know way too much, and they could never be left unaware of the events; it follows that they had to be eliminated.

    Yeah, until. You don't seem to understand that the movie consists of layer upon layer of lies, which are slowly peeled off, so that finally both Dougherty and Picard realize they have been working on false assumptions. What is left is a situation where the Son'a just plain cannot afford to leave any Ba'ku alive - and the revelation that they would have no desire to, anyway.

    But that was ruled out early in the movie, by people who were not telling lies. The case was simple enough: Ba'ku was UFP-controlled turf, and the Son'a had no business going into the Briar Patch unless the Federation gave them a permit (and an escort).

    Which one is more complicated, murdering a planet with one ship and none of the witnesses any wiser, or murdering a planet with an invasion fleet that has to fight through Starfleet to even reach the intended victim?

    If the movie indeed takes place after the Dominion War concludes, the Son'a will have to be very, very nice to the Federation to get their permit. Being allied to the losing side of the last war bodes ill for any attempt to pursue one's goals through further war with the victors.

    Timo Saloniemi
     

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