Star Trek Continues "Pilgrim of Eternity"

Discussion in 'Fan Productions' started by GSchnitzer, May 25, 2013.

  1. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Re: TOS continues...

    Apples and oranges.
    Or rather: Apple Stores and Enterprise bridges (unless your imagination is so severely stunted that brightly lit = Apple Store)

    Why insist on moving on to a new design aesthetic? Because the one from TOS was already badly dated 35 years ago. Or why do you think they changed moved on to something new for TMP?
     
  2. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    My suspicion is (in this case anyway) to fall back on the old saying: if you don't understand it then I can't explain it to you.

    My sense is that you simply don't like the look and sensibility of TOS. Fine, if true, but then why pee on others' parade?

    Then you're not interested in Roddenberry's Star Trek. You want dysfunction and angst and arbitrariness and a certain simplistic mindset to it all. Well JJ has made two films for you and perhaps someday someone will make a fanfilm of that.

    In the meantime we can enjoy the kind of Trek that got us interested in the beginning. I like being an adult and have no wish to be two years old again.
     
  3. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Re: TOS continues...

    My original question about the aesthetics of the production was to understand if the primary appeal to some fans was the aesthetics. Is recreating the TOS sets all it takes to please some people? Or is it the story-telling style that's appealing, while the sets are just eye candy? Because sets are always just eye candy, they don't improve the story or the acting.

    Again, if "Pilgrim of Eternity" had been shot on the JJTrek sets, would the appeal be gone? I should hope not, but if the sets of STC are all some fans want to see then I guess STC will be the only "new" Trek that will please them.
     
  4. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Re: TOS continues...

    Ha! I just saw the credits and you're right. Wow, that's pretty impressive they were able to get her to do it... although, she probably just wired it in over the Internet.

    Perhaps you haven't seen the other fan productions, like Exeter and New Voyages. Now in those episodes there are PLENTY of cringe moments. Comparing STC to them, it looks like the real thing to me, just with different actors. Yes, Grant Imahara needs a lot of work, but he has good potential. Everyone else was TERRIFIC.

    And remember -- THEY JUST GOT STARTED. All of the Star Trek series with professional actors mind you had to shake things out in the first season. These guys are amateurs. Considering what they've produced, it's extraordinary and I wish them well in cultivating it into an even better production.

    You can choose not to watch it if it displeases you so much. But you're overlooking how the SIMPLE SETS for TOS are much more conducive to making fan productions. Yeah, have someone try to come up with a believable TNG bridge. But in any case, TOS was cut short. TNG and the others (outside of ENT) had very long runs. So, TOS being the simpler series from a production perspective and having more "room" to work with makes it a good candidate. There are plenty of us who really wish TOS had gone on for 6 seasons.

    Frankly, I really can't fathom how any Star Trek fan would frown upon this production. To me it just telegraphs a very narrow perspective.
     
  5. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    I answered this question before. JJ's version of the characters would not behave as the TOS versions. And the way the JJ productions tell the story it wouldn't be the same.

    The aesthetic is part of the appeal, but how the story is told is a larger part of the appeal.

    TNG's "Measure Of A Man" is my favourite TNG episode. It doesn't look at all like TOS, but it feels like a story TOS could have told and it's told in much a similar way as well. And part of that is because the TNG characters spring from the same universe as the TOS characters and shared many of the same sensibilities. Picard and his crew are not the same as Kirk and his, but both share a similar idealism and value system that is merely expressed in somewhat different ways.
     
  6. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Re: TOS continues...

    I'm not asking about JJ's version of the characters telling this story. I'm asking whether shooting on the JJTrek sets would have diminished the appeal. Would you have turned your nose up at "Pilgrim of Eternity" if the actors had worn the costumes used in JJTrek and used the sets of JJTrek? Because it seems to me that the answer is yes, and if that's the case, then recreating the TOS sets and costumes for Star Trek (2009) would have lead you to praise JJ with endless gratitude for renewing Trek.

    As for STC, after perusing other fan productions, it's definitely a cut above. And they nailed a TOS vibe, which isn't easy, I imagine. The actors did well with their characters, particularly the Kirk actor - he did a Kirk without doing a Shatner-impersonation-Kirk. I congratulate them for their work, and if they make another some day I'd watch it.
     
  7. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    In all honesty I don't know. Because of how JJ set up his version of the universe I doubt I would give a fanfilm made in that universe a try. Speaking for myself TOS' aesthetic is part of the appeal, but certainly not all of the appeal. JJ's aesthetic is part of why I dislike his films, but not all of what I dislike about his films.

    I will use the Enterprise as a small example. Matt Jefferies' original design was a mix of inspiration and hotrod design. It not only looked cool but it was also presented in a way that made it seem very believable. It showed us a future that was clean and streamlined and uncluttered. It's inspirational design and how it was presented was symbolic of the rest of the series and of the characters themselves and of the world they inhabited and had sprung from.

    The Ryan Church version doesn't do that for me. I find it terribly shaped and proportioned. It has no visual balance and it looks like a miss-mash of design elements and styles. It looks arbitrary and thrown together. It is a distorted take on something generations of us have greatly admired. It flat out turns me off. Yet in its own way it, too, symbolizes the films it's in and all its elements. Next to nothing makes sense to me in JJ's films. So much of it strikes me as arbitrary and made up on the fly. I don't see any beauty in it and I don't sense any conceptual intelligence in it either.

    And so because JJ's version of the Trek universe turns me off so thoroughly I likely wouldn't be inclined to give a fanfilm set in that universe a try.

    I also sense you are trying to get me to give Abrams some sort of credit. And, no, you won't get me to do that simply because he has burned any goodwill I might have granted him. I greatly dislike his version or interpretation of the Trek universe. I want Roddenberry's Star Trek because it has the heart of what made it really good. JJ's doesn't have that, not in my book.
     
  8. Captain Atkin

    Captain Atkin Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: TOS continues...

    Although I am more of a TOS/TNG guy, I do enjoy 'J-J-Trek.' Some obviously don't like it, but there is plenty of classic Trek to still enjoy. To me, the nu-Trek is completely based in an alternate timeline, and so I don't see it interfering with the prime universe at all. I enjoy it for what it is, and I look forward to new movies in that universe.

    As far as fan-films go though, I'm not really interested in seeing JJ's Trek as a fan film (and if memory serves, the studio doesn't want us making fan-films in the universe anyway, so it's off limits for now). There is something more fun and appealing about seeing the classic Trek we grew up with brought to life as fan-fillms. I think Star Trek Continues gets the balance right, and I'm looking forward to more episodes from this series.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  9. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Re: TOS continues...

    You are dead wrong.
    I can appreciate both incarnations of TOS just fine.
    But I don't think those who don't like the new Star Trek are stupid, while you always look down your nose at those who do like it and think just that.

    Since Who mourns for Adonais was the first Star Trek episode I've ever seen, this episode here has a special appeal for me.
     
  10. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    Well, maybe you're just trying to bait me into saying something inflammatory which I won't do. I don't like Abrams' Trek yet others do and that's their business. My opinion of others who like JJ is my own and my own business. I've heard reasons as to why they like it and I can only say that I don't see what they see.
     
  11. doubleohfive

    doubleohfive Fleet Admiral

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    A friend watched the first episode the other night and posted this to his Facebook feed this morning:

    For myself, I was completely wowed by the production. Everything from the production design to the performances. Certainly middysefort and Maurice raise fair criticisms, but I was pretty happy with this, with the obvious exception that I thought it was pretty dumb that those security guards just stood there while Apollo was force-choking Kirk. He might as well have thrown a shoe at him. :lol:
     
  12. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Re: TOS continues...

    You make your opinion of those who like the new Star Trek pretty clear.
     
  13. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    And I think you are trolling. I think you're trying to start an argument and using the subject of this thread as an excuse to do that. And so I'm done trying to reply to your posts.
     
  14. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Re: TOS continues...

    Not my goal at all. I'm just curious as to where the heart of Trek is for you. How much can be stripped away from TOS before it stops appealing to you? It's really a general question for everyone on TrekBBS. Asking it makes me examine what I like about Trek. I'm not out to bait you. But you have made your opinion of JJTrek clear, so it was interesting for me to examine what made any version of Trek appealing to you. I appreciate your thoughtful answers.
     
  15. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    What they're doing is simply "Star Trek Season 4." There are lots of fan films out there that take place in different eras. All of these reflect the primary interest of those making them. Fan film: a film made by fans. Fans = Fanatics. Either watch it or don't, why all this twisting about "being able to go forward" or whatever? Star Trek was never supposed to be a real look into the future. In fact, it was about 1966 man in a future time, so it never would have been accurate. Every technological invention of the series was made to be recognizable to that audience. It was always closer to "present day" than to 2200-whatever.

    Also, why does it have to be "relevant?" Why can't it just be a fun visit to a series that many fans think should have had a 4th or 5th season? I wonder, does Star Trek's brand of Message Television even need to exist? Think about it, the taboos of the past are gone. People drop swear words on network television. We have nudity, frank discussions about sex, politics, terrorism, school shootings, racism, sexism, homophobia, racial profiling, and what have you. The time when it was necessary to hide these subjects behind "Martians and zap guns" is way over. Actually, redressing it to make it palatable for the masses is seen as soft and cowardly now. That part of Star Trek's intention is pretty much obsolete. All it really should be required to do now is tell mature, smart sci-fi stories with good characters, in an entertaining way.

    Everyone's taste is different, but the reason why Star Trek Continues is presented like this is because that's they era of Star Trek they love most and are most interested in. It's season 4 and it was a fine premiere.
     
  16. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    Way back when TNG started I was...turned off. Granted the first season was rough, but at the time it was so different from what I recognized as Star Trek. It would be some years before I could look back at TNG and begin to see things I liked. After all was said and done I now like a good portion of the first three or four seasons because amongst the new things I liked I could see some of the original Star Trek elements in it. I could say the same for a handful of DS9 episodes. Ultimately what turned me off the rest was the style of writing seemed to change in a way I didn't care for and it really felt like they were retreading too much familiar ground over and over and over again. I just wasn't seeing what I needed to see to like it anymore.
     
  17. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Moderator

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    Re: TOS continues...

    I don't think understanding the appeal of Star Trek--or of fan productions based on Star Trek--is rocket science.

    Star Trek is made up of a nearly infinite number of elements, with different viewers assigning nearly infinite different levels of importance to each of those elements.

    The style of plotting, dialogue, characterizations, directing, cinematography, lighting, coloring, editing, art design, sets, set decorations, casting, acting, theme song, additional music, visual effects, special effects, sound effects, props, costuming, make-up, hairstyles, stunt work, the occasional singing and dancing, and even the style of font--all make Star Trek uniquely Star Trek. These elements were combined in some "secret formula" nearly fifty years ago, and have helped it achive the longevity it has experienced so far. The design aesthetic has changed over the years, of course--mostly necessitated by the needs associated with making things larger than life up on a big screen, instead of smaller than life on a small television picture tube. Even after "newer" "updated" design aesthetics of a series of Trek motion pictures, a return of the franchise to television in 1987 looks more like the original series than the movies probably do.

    I think the intent of these Star Trek fan productions (well, of my production at any rate), is to "optimize" all those elements as much as possible to tell new adventures--on a small screen, of course. For some, trying to tell a new story with not-the-original actors is just crazy talk. For some, there's no problem with accepting new actors in familiar roles--but if you put them on a bridge that looks like an Apple store, that's just too unpalatable. For some, a sequel to an original Star Trek episode told with a 2009 art design aesthetic would be really cool. For others, that would be like putting bright yellow musard in a tall ketchup bottle: it would just look weird. But, for them, you could do it the other way: put the new actors on an "old" set design. For some, they really want to see tribbles again, or the gorn again, or Spock going into pon farr again; for others, they don't want the comfortably familar and they want something totally new. For some, they want to see how the world of Star Trek that we viewed through a 1966 lens actually transitioned to the world of animated Star Trek, to the movies, and to a new generation; others think that connecting all those dots is all just fan-wankery.

    Importantly, I think the idea that an adherence to a 1966-1969 production aesthetic somehow actually prevents a production from acheiving any kind of quality storytelling is a false dichotomy. The Star Trek Phase II (formerly New Voyages) episode "World Enough and Time" was nominated for both a science fiction Hugo Award and a science fiction Nebula Award, losing out to the Doctor Who episode "Blink" and the motion picture Pan's Labyrinth, respecitvely. We were honored to have lost to those fine productions.

    People like watching these things for different reasons; other people really hate watching these things for different reasons. But I don't think anyone is omnicient enough to know which elements are the truly fundamental elements of Star Trek and which ones are the ones that can be dispensed with. So for now I'll just work on producing the combination of elements that I think is "optimal," given the limited resources.

    Of course, Star Trek fan productions didn't invent the idea of doing pastiches; we're just doing it using a medium that hadn't really been employed much before. But pastiches are admittedly not for everyone--no matter what the medium.

    And all of this "what's the attraction of Star Trek fan films?" is something that's been discussed for nearly ten years now; the subject isn't really a new one all of a sudden.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: TOS continues...

    I had the thought that fan films were essentially little different than community theatre. Small groups have been retelling or revisiting stories in theatre forever. The advent of film (and television) allowed plays or stories to be shared with even bigger audiences. And now so does the Internet. Not everyone will like what they see, but there's sure to be something out there for most tastes.
     
  19. Barbreader

    Barbreader Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: TOS continues...

    Amen.
     
  20. DCR

    DCR Commander Red Shirt

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    For me, it's simple. I like space shows. They're my absolute favorite kind of "television," and nobody seems to be making them these days except fan groups.

    I've enjoyed Star Trek since I was a kid in the seventies, and I enjoy the fanfilms now. They're not perfect, but I'd rather watch an imperfect version of something I like than a perfect example of something I don't.
     

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