Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by TrickyDickie, May 16, 2014.

  1. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which absolutely makes sense from a dramatic standpoint. :techman:

    In universe, I just don't think Augments and basic humans could co-exist for a long period of time. Eventually one would become the dominant species and the other one would die out.
     
  2. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    I think "Kahn won't hesitate to kill your entire crew" is absolutely accurate. Yes, Khan doesn't rush in killing everyone in sight, because they are useful resources for information, support, labor.... But, if you give him a reason (IE: Don't conform and do exactly as you're told to do) "he won't hesitate to kill you" (Or anyone else fitting this criteria)
     
  3. Sector 7

    Sector 7 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Space Seed" was written during a time when people remembered the reign of Hitler and his genocide of Jews. Naturally, a comparison to Hitler and his actions told the audience that Khan was evil, deadly and power mad.
     
  4. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Like that one time in Space Seed when he was telling the crew of the Enterprise to join him or Kirk would die? First he demanded that Spock join him in order to spare Kirk, and when that didn't work, he sweetened the deal to ANYONE joining him. Does he kill every single one of the crew after everyone doesn't do what he tells them? No. Heck, his plan for the Enterprise was to use it to rule a populated world, not destroy it.

    Khan: My vessel was useless. I need you and yours to select a colony planet, one with a population willing to be led by us.
    McCoy: To be conquered by you... a starship would make that most simple, wouldn't it?

    Doesn't sound like he wants to enact genocide to me.
     
  5. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Hitler massacred untold number of people during his reign. Khan didn't. Hitler waged war against other countries during his reign. Khan didn't. Hitler is despised amongst the people of Earth, where as Khan was admired and somewhat respected.

    Why is everyone so eager to jump on the "Khan was always evil and genocidal" when the entire point of his character in Space Seed was supposed to be the exact opposite? The whole reason why the situation escalated so drastically was that Khan and Kirk did not understand each other at all. Khan thought that Kirk and his crew were inferior to the point that he could intimidate them into following him, and Kirk assuming that he could contain Khan. Did it all end in bloodshed? No. No one died and Kirk and Khan actually came to an understanding. Both sides got what they wanted in the end and we're left to ponder if Kirk's decision for letting Khan build his empire was the right one. Thanks to TWOK, we'll never know because Ceti Alpha V was turned into a barren wasteland. And thanks to STID, we'll never know because Khan is now strictly an irredeemable bad guy who cannot be bargained with. That sucks.
     
  6. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm 100% with Jeyl on this. I'm really puzzled why some people don't get this. I have lost count of how many times Jeyl posted the exact dialogue quotes about how Khan was considered the best of tyrants, meaning that it absolutely WASN'T a Hitler-esque terror regime.

    Khan did in fact not hesitate to remove those who stood in the way of his plans, BUT he wasn't all about vengeance, terror and genocide.
    That came ONLY after his 15 year exile on Ceti Alpha, which changed his character. And even in TWOK, it was never about genocide. He considered himself superior, but that was it.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because the dialogue has to be taken with a grain of salt based on Spock's "fragmentary" records line, the fact that to control a quarter of the planet one would have to be ruthless to some degree and how we see him treat the crew of the Enterprise.

    Kirk and Scott's basis for their opinion of Khan likely comes from literature of their time that was based on those same fragmentary records Spock mentions. I bet if you asked Kirk and Scott if they admired Khan after the incident, they would say "no".

    If we take dialogue at face value then Vulcans never lie...
     
  8. ThankQ

    ThankQ Admiral Admiral

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    No, they never existed to go back to the '30s.
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, they did.

    Remember, the divergence only happens in 2233. Any time before that, there is only one timeline, not two.

    Time travelers from either the prime or Abrams timelines can travel back to any point prior to 2233, and while they're doing that, they can even meet. They're simply two possible futures. Either one is equally real.
     
  10. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Oh, cripes. Here comes my infamous quoting machine again.

    SPOCK: However, scanners make out a name. SS Botany Bay.
    KIRK: Then you can check the registry.
    SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.​

    *Later*

    SPOCK: A strange, violent period in your history. I find no record what so ever of an SS Botany Bay.​

    Sounds more like ship records than actual historical records given how whenever a character talks about Earth history, they seem to know exactly what transpired.

    MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
    SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
    MCCOY: Oh, now wait a minute. Not our attempt, Mister Spock. A group of ambitious scientists. I'm sure you know the type. Devoted to logic, completely unemotional- ​

    KIRK: An improved breed of human. That's what the Eugenics War was all about. ​

    SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence.​

    SPOCK: In 1992, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
    KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves.​

    This one is my favorite because it pinpoints exactly where the fragmentation occurred and why.

    SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.
    KIRK: That fact isn't in the history texts. ​

    There's a mystery here for certain, but it doesn't involve Khan's rule of Earth. That is clearly well documented judging by how familiar the characters are with Khan already. So what answers does Kirk seek?

    KIRK: What was the exact date of your lift off? We know it was sometime in the early 1990s, but
    KHAN: I find myself growing fatigued, Doctor. May we continue this questioning at some other time?
    KIRK: The facts I need, Mister Khan, will take very little time. For example, the nature of your expedition. ​

    KIRK: You fled. Why? Were you afraid?
    KHAN: I've never been afraid.
    KIRK: But you left at the very time mankind needed courage. ​

    KIRK: I'd like those answers now. First, the purpose of your star flight.​

    And what is the first question Marla McGivers asks Khan?

    MARLA: I'd like some historical information about your ship, its purpose and ​

    There you have it. The only bit of history involving Khan that isn't reliable involves how he and his followers fled Earth in a sleeper ship. That's the only mystery that the crew can't explain, and it's the only thing Kirk wanted to have answered. So no, I won't apply the "fragmented records" line to exonerate STID's stupid attempt at solidifying Khan as just a bad guy who wants to kill people because that was not the point of Space Seed's story.
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You're free to interpret it any way you like. :techman:
     
  12. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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  13. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    For no reason at all, I presume? Picard doesn't seem like he's in a disingenuous moment there. And I'm curious: are the TOS characters equally allowed to be "disingenuous", or just Picard?
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The only reason it is disingenuous is because it disagrees with her read of Khan.
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Since Star Trek aired 27 years after World War II, there's really no excuse why there couldn't have been a Khan/Hitler comparison if that was the direction they wanted to take his character. It wasn't. This whole situation feels like everyone is picking sides of the writer who probably never watched Space Seed over the writer who wrote it. Just because TNG says Khan is comparable to Hitler, that's how he should be treated.
     
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Khan planned to execute the entire TOS bridge crew one by one in "Space Seed", by suffocation, while forcing the others to watch. How on Earth is he not a murderous monster? This wasn't a bluff, he was actually going through with it and thought Kirk dead.

    FWIW, I'm pretty sure Spock's line in ID about Khan's plan to eradicate everyone not considered genetically superior was a based on Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels, where Khan's final solution was a modified version of strep which would have killed everyone on Earth who wasn't genetically engineered. His plan was foiled and Khan and his people exiled.
     
  17. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Having seen Taxi Driver last night, I woke up with a gripe against the idea of an evil man who is just evil, and once again unhappy about Khan's treatment.

    Space Seed is overflowing with examples of Khan's evilness and ruthlessness, and one can cite them to no end, but it did go out of its way to add ambiguity to his character. It was everywhere, it was in the undertones, it was in the crew's impression of him from history books. And they did leave him on Ceti Alpha V optimistic and intrigued about the future of the colony – which shows that even the crew of the Enterprise didn't feel he and his crew were irredeemably evil.

    And we're in the Star Trek universe, where any kind of being was able to become part of the family, regardless of their strength, intellect, or values, so it is regrettable that, outside of DS9, any genetically-enhanced person was deemed unworthy to be a part of the civilisation. I would imagine it would have found a way for better inclusion of people with chronic lack of empathy for others, which could have worked even for Khan. TWOK and STID threw out any ambiguity and wasted his character potential to make him more than the token evil guy (I saw TWOK before Space Seed, so saying it ruined Khan for me would be a very peculiar statement I couldn't make... so I'd make it :p )

    STID even played into it, by bringing his pain, by making him mistreated by Marcus, and by all that, and in the end it went nowhere. Thankfully, he's alive and well, so I guess this opportunity isn't completely lost, but chances are, he'll be as evil if he returns. We all know that. (Besides, adding anything positive to him now, after he murdered all those people in SF would be a very challenging task.)

    Then again, I was generally underwhelmed by the final sequence. For example, I would have liked if McCoy broke the news of what happened in SF to Kirk when he woke up in his bed – with his fitting emotional reaction. So maybe it is a lot of small things that make me generally biased against everything in it, including Khan's fate, which did make sense.


    --

    As for the genocide line, while seemingly unfitting, I do think that "ethnic cleansing" is an unfortunate term that began as euphemism to belittle what was going on, so I wouldn't be surprised if in the future it is replaced with "genocide" even when it doesn't involve literally killing people – maybe Khan didn't commit that kind of atrocity, but he chased everyone who he found less than superior in ways that would have ultimately lead to their demise – perhaps killed by the other tyrants. So it is quite possible that he committed no massacres, but was committing mass genocide by sending people to placed where someone else would commit a massacre, or where they would have little chance of surviving. Wait, isn't that already genocide?

    Besides, he could have just forbidden these people from having children. That is genocide under the current definition, and it is not a massacre. Does Space Seed say anything about Khan allowing everyone to have children under his rule? No? Well, Spock's statement does not contradict anything then.

    And that makes him a Hitler too.
     
  18. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One could also write:

    "Does Space Seed say anything about what Khan did in the process of seizing power? No? Well, Spock's statement does not contradict anything then."
     
  19. ClassicTrekkie

    ClassicTrekkie Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    No, that's not how alternate timelines work. The divergent point was in 2233 but the fact that an alternate timeline was created makes them both separate from each other in all aspects. Therefore while both timelines' pasts would be identical up to 2233, they're still completely separate and they don't overlap. If they did, all that prime-Spock would have to do to go home is slingshot around a sun to 1930, go to Earth, wait for his younger self and co. to show up and then go back to through the Guardian with them and then take a second hop back to his own future.
     
  20. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Come on, we're talking about ever-changing made up science in a fantasy world. In TNG: "Time Squared", when the timeline changed the duplicate Picard and shuttlecraft faded away. In ENT: "The Expanse" there was a change in the 22nd century which somehow took time to affect the 31st, despite instantaneous effects shown before. Taking Archer out of his timeline in "Shockwave" instantly destroys the future, yet when Daniels does it in "Azati Prime" and "Zero Hour" it's no biggie. Then there's Spock beaming Captain Christopher into himself in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" which doesn't make a whole lot of sense at all.

    I think it's fair to say, with the word of god and diagrams on the IDW and STO web sites, and as described in novels, that a shared past is the way time travel is working for the moment.

    (Christopher's novel DTI: Watching the Clock does a masterful job of weaving most of Trek's contradictory time travels into one massively complicated but seemingly consistent system. It's a good read, too.)
    Who says he can't? Spock doesn't want to go back to his future. He spells it out in ST'09 - he feels responsible for the destruction of Vulcan and has dedicated the rest of his life to helping them rebuild. "KthanxbyeLLAP!" isn't in his nature.