Star Trek 3: The Edge of Forever

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by TrickyDickie, May 16, 2014.

  1. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It would an incredible cheat if they did, but interesting if Trek hadn't done so many reset button stories, before. However, such a story would fit in with what J.D. Payne told an audience at the LDS Film Festival about thinking of a story where there is great ambiguity between right and wrong:

    If they do it, though, I'd like the movie to end one of two ways. Either --
    1. In the restored timeline, Robau lived, and a cult of personality arose around him. He has become Lord and Master of the Federation.
    Or --
    2. The movie ends with the timeline changed back, and Kirk in command of a TOS-style ship, which is on a routine mission in a sector when Spock's sensors come across a 1990s sleeper ship called the "Botany Bay". Sets up the teaser for the fourth movie quite nicely, I'd say. ;)

    Link to above quotes here (scroll down the page a bit when you get there):

    http://io9.com/first-tantalizing-clues-about-the-storyline-for-star-tr-1548451901
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  2. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

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    The 50th fulfilled for me would be an OS homage comprised of an all new story, similar to the teaser of STID only expanded to feature length.

    The original music cues, not someone's barely audible interpretation of them, should be liberally applied wherever applicable.

    Finally, the Classic opening/ending credits scenes/theme song bookmarking both ends would round things out nicely. They could skip the intro monologue if they wanted to, its been done to death.
     
  3. YARN

    YARN Fleet Captain

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    But only if they promise us Decker won't be in the film,
    PHP:
    but then have a reveal in the third act that he IS Decker.
    And he'll need to be super-buff and athletic and hop around with cannon-sized guns.

    The planet killer zaps the Romulan homeworld to bits. Turns out Decker secretly herded the planet killer there as part of some under-explained jingoistic conspiracy.

    After Kirk does something hasty and insubordinate, he loses his command to Decker, but he gets command back after he convinces Star Fleet command that Decker is a bad guy. Kirk learns valuable lessons about leadership and responsibility (again).
     
  4. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The problem with that is that a writer has to make the stories in outer (deep) space be very interesting, otherwise the audience gets bored and you have the same setup as Star Trek: Insurrection where the Enterprise visits the 'Planet Of The Week'. The writers could adapt the Star Trek game for a story, or they could adapt one of the novels as a movie (Crisis On Centaurus, The Galactic Whirlpool, How Much For Just The Planet) or any other Star Trek novel around.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  5. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    As I recall, the original series technically only had one episode that featured their modern day Earth, and it was an illusion. Unless it's an exact replica of Earth or a time travel story, most of the original series' episodes never deal with their at all. Heck, CBS tried to incorporate Earth into the TV spots for the remastered version of "The Doomsday Machine".

    "The ultimate weapon is headed for Earth."

    No it wasn't. Now you could argue that if the Enterprise didn't stop it and it continued on it's destructive course to destroy all the solar systems it could, than yes. Earth would be eventually be a target. But the episode didn't fall for that trope. It wanted to tell a story about our characters with stakes that were high, but not cliché.

    And is Insurrection really a fair example of a Star Trek story that doesn't feature Earth? Because if there was one thing about the film that was boring it wasn't because they were on an alien planet. It was because the alien planet itself was incredibly boring.

    If this new take on Star Trek wants to live up to it's name, it's mission statement, and it's own promise it made at the end of it's last two movies, it's got to be able to tell a story without involving Earth. Other wise, why not just call this "Star Trek: Earth's Defense Force" since both of JJ Abrams' movies deal with stopping a revenge driven bad guy who wants to destroy life on Earth.
     
  6. section9

    section9 Commander Red Shirt

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    The only reason to redo City would be under two circumstances:

    1. Harlan writes it, of course, to give the effort street cred that it might not have with the fanboy community under Orci.

    2. Have Harlan write it in such a way that the original intent of the stour from 1967 is honored AND the Prime Timeline and the JJ Verse are unified by the Guardian of Forever.

    Reduces confusion in the Universes,IMHO, and cleans a lot of things up.
     
  7. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Unlike Nero Khan wasn't trying to destroy Earth or all life on Earth. He only blew up the Section 31 facility, shot up Daystrom, and tried to have the Vengeance crash into Starfleet HQ.
     
  8. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Yes he was.

    Khan: Mr. Spock, give me my crew.
    Spock: What will you do when you get them?
    Khan: Continue the work we were doing before we were banished.
    Spock: Which as I understand it involves the mass-genocide of any being you find to be less than superior.

    What else could it mean?
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I think Spock is talking the long game there. Wouldn't be much fun for Khan to rule over an entire planet with only seventy-two subjects.
     
  10. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah. Could be. The line threw me for a loop when I first heard it, and I've always had trouble with it since, because in "Space Seed" they said Khan was the most dangerous of the tyrants, but there were also no massacres under his rule, and he attacked only if he was attacked first.

    From "Space Seed", it seemed Khan's grand plan was to create another golden era of a unified Earth similar to the height of the Roman Empire, with him as Caesar. He wanted to essentially be worshiped like a god by all his "inferior" subjects. So I'd think, the more "inferior" people, the merrier.

    He was never associated with genocide. It's a rather jarring inconsistency for Spock to say that, and I don't know where it could've come from. My guess is the writers thought it would be the best way to convey just how evil Khan was. Still, it was an odd characterization compared to what had been said about him, before.
     
  11. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Khan wasn't going to stop with only 72 followers. His ultimate goal was to create an entire race of genetically engineered augments like him. He wanted to eliminate everyone who wasn't one of his kind, and make the entire human race 'perfect'.

    Genocide (of all who weren't engineered) would be in perfect keeping with Khan's kind.

    Besides, when Spock mentioned genocide, Khan didn't correct him, you know...
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I take Spock's analysis with a huge grain of salt since even he says that records from the period were fragmentary. Surely the nations he ruled didn't just roll over without a shot fired? And even in the best of times, there are always people who are dissatisfied with government.

    It could be that Spock is playing to his ego here? It could be that this new Khan's motivations have been colored by what happened during "The Augments" trilogy from Enterprise? Perhaps Spock's analysis is colored by those events? Perhaps he planned to raid Cold Station 12 and bring thousands of Augments to life to accelerate the process of their ascension as the dominate species on Earth?

    Just spitting into the wind here... :lol:
     
  13. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't know. It just seemed odd that Khan would want to systematically kill all inferior people rather than rule them, then on top of that, create an entire race of augments like him (more potential rivals of equal power).

    After all, Khan was fighting and presumably killing fellow augments to gain power over the "inferior" beings on Earth during the 1990s. C'mon guys! You remember. It was less than twenty years ago, for cryin' out loud. :p

    Honestly, if his goal was to wipe out ordinary people and create a race of thousands of superior beings with all the accompanying superior egos and ambitions, that seems to be a recipe for creating competing interests, and therefore chaos and wars for leadership, not pax Romana.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    But the numbers would suggest that goal would always be unattainable. There are billions of humans vs. a few super-humans. He controlled a quarter of the Earth, yet was still eventually run off the planet.
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Wasn't there a novel where Khan tried to create a super-virus that would kill all non-augments?
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I can't remember exactly how Morningstar worked from Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars books? But he did have a doomsday weapon.
     
  17. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Records being fragmented could have more to do with why there are no records of Khan's trip on the Botany Bay and not his history of ruling Earth. After all, when the crew discuss Khan's history, Scotty himself refers to him as though he knows his history well.

    Scotty: I must confess gentlemen, I've always had a sneaking admiration for this one.​

    And while you're right that there would certainly be some fighting going on in order to seize power, Khan was clearly the only super tyrant one who stopped the fighting at that point. The bit about whole societies being bombed out of existence might have more to do with the super tyrants fighting amongst themselves than Khan trying to gain power. After all, why would he bomb people when his desire was to rule over them? Despite how much he brags about being superior to the crew of the Enterprise, he's very open to them joining his ranks with the promise to treat them all well.

    Khan was not someone who wanted everyone to be as perfect as he was. He wanted to be the perfect ruler. He fled Earth because all of Earth had rejected him and his followers, so he ventured into space to find a new world where his people could begin again without the inferior humans to get in the way. It's his last words in the episode!

    Khan: And I've gotten something else that I've wanted. A world to win, an empire to build.​

    This is why the Spock Prime scene in STID was a mistake, because when you have the original Spock talking about his experiences, he isn't talking about Benedict's Khan, he's talking about Ricardo's Khan, and that Khan is nothing like the one Spock Prime is describing. Deadliest enemy the Enterprise has ever faced? In TWOK maybe, but in Space Seed there wasn't even a red shirt casualty. Would not hesitate to kill every last one of the crew? Pspspsps. As I've said many, many times already. Khan does worse than hesitate. He gloats.

    Khan: I deprive your ship of power and when I swing around I mean to deprive you of your life. But I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you!​

    And when NuSpock mentions the genocide, he is obviously referring to what Spock Prime told him off screen so we are supposed to accept this as fact since Spock does not bluff.

    So yeah. They altered Khan, both old and new just so they could have a bad guy to fit with the "Bad guy threatens Earth" cliché that has been the go to formula since Nemesis.
     
  18. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There is one question that begs to be answered if Khan's purpose truly was the mass genocide of all beings he deemed less superior: Why did he make the "inferior" Marla McGivers his wife? Why would he deem her a suitable companion for him while he and his fellow augments apparently want to wipe out the entire population of inferior people like her? Every night until she died, he went to bed with an inferior being he apparently loved.
     
  19. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One guess:

    "What if one of those lives I save down there is a child who grows up to be the next Adolf Hitler or Khan Singh?"

    - Jean-Luc Picard, A Matter of Time ( TNG S5 )

    And Spock Prime was there for TWOK, so that's legitimately a part of what he's talking about. And it's obviously being referred to there, given the "how did you beat him" angle.

    The point was that he was willing to kill the crew members to get what he wanted, that was made clear. But you're right - he might have gloated before the genocidal behavior, so it wouldn't count.

    How would that affect Abrams Khan any more than Prime Khan?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  20. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    That line from TNG was disingenuous. He was not a Hitler who massacred people! I seriously doubt that if he really was a genocidal mad man that Scotty would openly admire the individual. The only thing that Spock could come up with to show how bad of a person he is was to say he was a ruthless dictator who took away limited his people's freedoms. No killing, no wars, just a lot of restrictions. If Khan was everything that post-TWOK material makes him out to be, than the conversation should have gone like this.

    Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
    Spock: I'm afraid you are incorrect Mr. Scott. It was well known especially for Khan that his purpose was to commit mass genocide on anyone he thought was inferior.
    Kirk: Mr. Scott, I'm surprised at you. How could you admire a man who was a cold blooded war criminal that wanted to murder every human who wasn't as superior as he was? He was practically Hitler!​

    Instead of using Space Seed as a basis for Khan's character, everyone resorts to the revenge seeking Khan from the second movie, and even in STID they don't even get that right. Khan being the bad guy in TWOK was the result of 15 years of feeling abandoned on a world that turned it into an inhospitable nightmare where he was powerless to stop the deaths of many of his loyal followers, including his own wife. That was tangible motivation. This NuKhan's motivation all stems from incorrect assumptions.