Star Trek 2 The Wrath of Khan - Why did Kirk yell "KHAAAAAN!"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Ben, May 30, 2013.

  1. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thank you. I think the only realistic answer to this thread is that it's 'a bit of both' Kirk was playing Khan, no question, but Khan still pushed Kirk's buttons in the yell scene, of that I am sure. If the yell was fake any normal person would have turned to the group and said 'that'll fool the chump' - as far as the rest of the landing party were concerned, they were stranded there, possibly for a long time if the Enterprise gets destroyed, and who's to say Khan and his guys wouldn't beam down and finish them off after dealing with the Enterprise?
     
  2. Runetouch

    Runetouch Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Have you ever seen Kirk lose his temper like that? I mean, in TOS or something? By that sort of thing, Kirk was overreacting, and while Shatner may be an over-actor, this was way too much ham. No, I am sure that Kirk was pretending to be frustrated.
     
  3. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Disagree, he lost his shit in TOS quite a lot, but why not tell the people who he was with of his plan? Why let them think all hope is lost?

    That's a cunt's trick
     
  4. Runetouch

    Runetouch Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    He never lost his temper like that in TOS. The closest was in 'Enemy Within' and that was the evil Kirk.
     
  5. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I watched an episode only the other week where Kirk lost his temper - he had to fight someone in a cell and the plot of the episode was similar to 'Insurrection' can't recall the name of the episode.

    I still maintain at that moment Khan was pushing the guys buttons - look what had happened in the run up to that scene, in all the years of watching TWOK (I reckon I've seen it 100 times) I've never once thought that Kirk was putting it on as part of his plan
     
  6. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    I think Kirk was using the actual rage he felt to mislead Khan. That is, the emotion was genuine but the choice to let it out was calculated, to make Khan feel he'd won.

    And I never felt that Shatner's acting was bad in this scene--over-the-top but not bad.
     
  7. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But surely rage is something that just 'comes out' I dunno, I guess we'll never know, it's a good debate nonetheless...
     
  8. Runetouch

    Runetouch Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    He did lose his temper in TOS, but he never lost it to such a great extent, and I don't seem to recall him overreacting that much ever, not even in 'Operation Annhilate' in which his brother died.
     
  9. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That doesn't mean this anger wasn't genuine. It is Khan disrespecting him after all
     
  10. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    Smellmet, please don't use the C-word here (the one bolded). It's not acceptable board language. Thank you.
     
  11. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My apologies, I've seen plenty of colorful language on here, didn't think it would be a problem - the context is that it's a phrase in the UK for a 'rotter' so to speak, won't happen again
     
  12. Runetouch

    Runetouch Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Khan wasn't disrespecting him that much.
     
  13. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    Thank you, Smellmet. In the US, it's a very derogatory word for women.
     
  14. RColtrane

    RColtrane Cadet Newbie

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    Hummm... let me see...

    One of the many William Shatner's overacting moments?
     
  15. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's not a dumb question. I had to go back and re-watch the scene to try and get an answer.

    He has Genesis. Kirk has gone from seeing 2 people die (not to mention those on the station), and Chekov is now incapacitated. Then, Khan takes Genesis. He tries to manipulate Khan to stick around and give him time to get Genesis back. Khan has basically said "I've already had my revenge, I don't need to kill you." So, with a hobbled ship to be repaired in 2 hours, transmissions being jammed around Regula One, a mad superman just took possession of the greatest weapon the universe has ever known. What if Khan decided to go to earth and reclaim it for only Genetically-superior people like himself? Khan just became the most powerful and dangerous man in the galaxy. The only reason why Khan isn't that diabolical is that he finds out, when he goes to finish off the Enterprise, that Kirk is very much still in the game and he needs to defeat him. He's not thinking like a megalomaniac. He should be, considering his life's purpose before the death of his wife. Khan is only defeated by his wrath. If he didn't have a vendetta with Kirk, he could've ransomed the galaxy, become a terrorist, or started the war back up, this time on a galatic stage.
     
  16. Spockkirk

    Spockkirk Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree with that as well. Khan was wipping Kirk's butt by doing that
     
  17. Clark Terrell

    Clark Terrell Lieutenant Commander

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    Which is ironic given that the two were (supposedly) classmates at the Academy (though we don't know how big each class is, so it's possible they wouldn't have met before).

    Either way, Kirk always seemed to empathize strongly with anyone who took on the burden of commanding a starship, something Terrell did almost as long as Kirk. I'm sure he viewed Terrell as something of a kindred spirit and was saddened by his death, as anyone would be given the circumstances. That it happened because Terrell was abducted and manipulated by Khan for his own ends because of events Kirk set in motion only made things worse.

    Greg Cox does a nice job writing Kirk's reflections on what happened in his Khan novels. To Reign in Hell depicts Kirk remembering Terrell as someone who gave his life to protect fellow Starfleet officers. It's clear he feels a sense of responsibility for the captain's death and regrets that he got caught up in something that had nothing to do with him.
     
  18. enterprisecvn65

    enterprisecvn65 Captain Captain

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    I'm sorry but anyone who thinks that Kirk was "bluffing" or trying to "trick" Khan into thinking he'd won and his scream was something else besides 100% pure anger and rage obviously wasn't paying attention to the movie up to that point.

    Let's review:

    1. Kirk receives a strange transmission from the person who is the closest thing he ever had to a true love demanding to know why he has ordered this top secret device to be taken away from them and before he can get all the necessary information resolved the message is cut off by jamming. So he has to take command of the Enterprise and go to Regula I with pretty much no idea what the hell is going on.

    2. While on the way to Regula encounters a fellow Federation starship acting in a suspicious manner and, in large part because of Kirk's own incompetence, the Reliant is able to launch a successful surprise attack that kills or injures several crew members and seriously damages the Enterprise herself.

    3. Upon discussing surrender terms Kirk learns that a man from 15 years ago is hell bent on revenge with the single minded thought of making Kirk pay for what Khan has become.

    4. Remember Khan is a man who Kirk basically saved his life and extended every courtesy to, despite knowing Khan's past, and Khan still tried to murder Kirk and hijack the Enterprise and was almost successful at doing so. In spite of this Kirk didn't just throw them all in the brig and drop them off at the nearest starbase or planet to be tried and rot in jail for the rest of their lives, he actually gives them a chance for freedom and to build their own civilization on a planet that seems perfect for this purpose. So he actually lets Khan still be a ruler and gives him more than what he had when he fled Earth. Yet Khan blames Kirk for everything terrible that happened to them since and wants revenge and it's only Kirk superior knowledge of how starships function that saves the Enterprise in this first encounter. How the hell was Kirk supposed to know what happened to Khan. He's a busy man and the galaxy is a big place, he did everything he could to treat Khan humanely when he had every right to just pull out a phaser and blow him into oblivion. Did Khan really believe that Kirk was supposed to keep checking on him and his followers as priority #1 on his of things to do forever. So Kirk treats Khan way more fairly than he was obligated to and now Khan is obsessed with killing Kirk because of events that were totally beyond Kirk's control? That'd make me a little angry to be so generous and be repaid this way.

    5. Kirk beams over to the Regula station and finds the crew brutally slaughtered by Khan and doesn't know what has happened to Carol, a woman he still obviously cares very deeply for. He also finds Chekov and Terrell apparently all F'ed from Khan's torture.

    6. Kirk beams down to the planet and in the span of a few minutes discovers: He has a son who hates him and thinks he's a murderer. Sees Carol for the first time in who knows how long. Discovers Chekov and Terrell are still under Khan mind control and are ordered to kill him which drives Terrell mad to the point where he blows a genesis team member away and then kills himself, and causes Chekov to react in such a way that it appears he may very well die and Kirk is stunned at the horror of what Khan did to them with the Ceti Eels, and to top it all off Khan beams the Genesis torpedo onto the Reliant and now has the use of what may be the most powerful weapon in the galaxy.

    7. Finally when Kirk challenges Khan to come on down and finish this man to man Khan taunts him by telling he enjoys hurting him more than killing and blames Kirk again for everything, specifically the death of his wife and he plans to do to him the same thing by leaving him on a dead planet for all eternity very alive.

    Now I don't know about you but it seems to that is a HELL of a lot of stress to have to take in a short amount amount of time and I probably anyone under those circumstances would snap in one way or another and his way was to scream KHAN!!!!!!!!! I don't see where any "bluffing" or "pretending" to make Khan think he'd won can even be considered as a factor in his response.

    As for the "Well he had a plan so there was no reason to get angry so it was all a ploy" explanation. Sure he had a plan, but there were no guarantees it was going to work. The Reliant was still in better shape than the Enterprise and could have hunted her down and destroyed her, something Khan made clear he intended to still do despite Kirk not being on board, before Kirk called at the designated time. Also Khan had the Genesis torpedo and could have just fired it at the planet at any time, killed everyone at once, destroyed the Enterprise and called it a day. Or Khan could have said "Well I got Kirk, the hell with the Enterprise. Let's go to Earth and use this thing there an I can establish a new order after everyone is dead."
    And "Having a plan" doesn't undo all the terrible things that have happened to Kirk and his friends and crew over the last several hours.

    And to the "Kirk's too cool a customer lose it like that" line..bull****. Kirk has had numerous terrible things happen very quickly because of one man's personal (and unjustified) vendetta against him personally, not because of some political or cultural differences. I know Kirk is known for playing it cool but as Morgan Freeman said in Shawshank Redemption "Every man has his breaking point." Kirk was no different and he reached his. And while agree Shatner can overdo it I think the scream was perfect. What was he supposed to do? Give some half hearted yell of annoyance or say "Khan you are a very, very bad man."

    Emotions people.......humans have them and can't always control them, especially when things get really bad. Kirk was furious with Khan, had had enough and blew his top. It was a great scene of raw anger and there was no "secret alternative motive" of him doing it.
     
  19. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    100% agree
     
  20. enterprisecvn65

    enterprisecvn65 Captain Captain

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    Tell me an example in TOS when Kirk was confronted by an antagonist who (Totally unjustified) personally held Kirk responsible for everything bad that had happened to him after their exile and made it his sole obsession in life to make Kirk pay for all of his misery. And was able to almost accomplish this goal killing a lot of people and causing massive destruction along the way. I can't think of one.

    All of Kirk's enemies on the show were due to political or cultural issues or some person or alien race or machine just acting crazy. It wasn't a personal vendetta against him. Even when his brother dies it was just because of a creature acting on instinct, which happens all the time, not because some madman with a personal score to settle with Kirk had him killed in cold blood.

    And this after Kirk in TOS had basically given Khan another shot at building a life in freedom when, for Khan's actions, he could have justifiably:

    1. Blown away Khan with a phaser.

    2. Returned them all to suspended animation in the Botany Bay and sent them into deep space.

    3. Had them all thrown in the slammer and say to Khan "Good luck Khan....I hope your genetically engineered ass can protect you from Boggs and the Sisters (or the 23rd century equivalent)

    Everything horrible that happened to Khan on Ceti Alpha V Kirk couldn't have possibly anticipated and was totally beyond his control. Khan was basically mad that Kirk didn't text him every few days to see how things were going, so when it all went to hell he could save them. It's not like Kirk beat McGivers to death with his bare hands in front of Khan or hung the crew of the Botany Bay with piano wire and made Khan watch.

    Kirk thought he'd dealt with them much more humanely then they deserved, he'd given them a chance to have a life and now he had to move on with his own life and it wasn't his responsibility to check in frequently and ask "Everything going OK on there good buddy". Christ he even let Khan take one of his crewmembers because they loved each other when McGivers, out of all people, should have been tried for mutiny.

    Speaking of McGivers Khan didn't seem to have a problem forgiving her when she sabotaged his plans to hijack the Enterprise, he even married her for God sakes. Granted she was a nice piece of tail and Khan wanted to tap that ass, but she had just as much, if not more for the Botany Bay crew being exiled. Yet he's obsessed with killing Kirk 15 years later when Kirk treated him better then he deserved and had absolutely nothing to do with the actual events that destroyed Khan's life.

    That was the whole point of TWOK. Kirk had never experienced such a psychotic and determined foe who wanted revenge for completely personal reasons and as a result Kirk responded differently than he did to some Klingon or Romulan who hated Kirk because his government told him he was supposed to.

    And if you think the scream was over the top I ask you, considering all the pain, death and destruction Khan had inflicted so far, all in the name of personal vengence, and was now openly taunting him, how was Kirk supposed to react? "Oh Khan you meanie head, stop this silliness now". The scream was great, it was acted great and it showed that even the mighty Captain Kirk had a breaking point which made him more human and relateable, especially at this stage in his life.

    Nothing in TOS can even begin compare to the sheer personal level of hatred Khan had for Kirk and Kirk faced something he'd never had to before. Someone who was determined to hunt him down to the ends of the universe if necessary. That's what made the film a classic.
     

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