ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Captain Nebula, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. James Pike

    James Pike Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I replied within your quote.
    But mainly you have to understand that there is a lot of history to consider with Star Trek, and many different writers. To them their job is to create an entertaining story for a wide audience.

    I really enjoyed STVI
     
  2. Sky

    Sky Captain Captain

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    You and EliyahuQeoni have excellent points. I never understood why it would be inconceivable for Kirk to be prejudiced towards Klingons. He's not a perfect man, by any means. He's fought them his whole life and lost his own son to them. Of course it'd be great if he could see outside his own experience a bit sooner and lose his prejudice, but he's flawed, he's human. And I've always found humans more interesting than paragons.

    (I also find Vulcans more interesting than paragons and thus would really have liked Saavik's story arch to end in TUC with her being the traitor. That would have had emotional impact.)
     
  3. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    It would have, but I prefer the way they did it, because I *liked* Robin's Saavik. Call me simplistic.:rolleyes:
     
  4. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    How many times did Dr McCoy act like he didn't know Spock's anatomy? I know he always managed to get him through, but compare that line to his about Sarek in Journey to Babel.
     
  5. JamesRye

    JamesRye Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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  6. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Going by McCoy's trial statements about being desperate to save him for the sake of peace, it is EASY for me to believe McCoy was genuinely panicked ... it seems out of character compared to how he was when treating the horta (and he SURE didn't understand that character's physiology to any detailed degree), but there wasn't quite as much at stake (well, preventing genocide is pretty big too, come to think of it ... )

    The series-era McCoy was cooler under pressure (and for me, the most admirable character, because he stood with his friends in really bad circumstances even though he clearly did not have the resources to defend himself as they did -- something that they got seriously right in STAR TREK 5 when he faces down 'God' after seeing the punishments meted out to K & S.)

    But the movie era McCoy, while not having an EMPATH moment or anything quite as good as his cell conversation with Spock in BREAD & CIRCUSES, is really deep. You have him talking to unconscious Spock in SFS and all the levels are peeled back there, indicating some serious level of life fatigue.

    I wouldn't call McCoy's TUC character assassination ... not like it is for Kirk and (to some degree) Spock. I think Shatner's mannerism (cut by Meyer) during the 'let them die' speech would have helped preserve real Kirk to a degree, but the movie is more of an agenda with the characters bent and twisted a little to fit that agenda.

    It works, but I kinda don't like that it works. Sort of how I feel about the Valeris forced meld, in fact.
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, there's also the fact that McCoy's older in TUC, and as noted, there's more at stake than usual. It's possible a TOS-aged McCoy would have handled it otherwise.
     
  8. Leto_II

    Leto_II Commander Red Shirt

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    Not really, re: the film ignoring "Yesterday's Enterprise."

    Remember that the episode never explicitly mentions that the Narendra III incident was ever "the only" significant event which led to peace with the Klingon Empire; it was merely the most recent such one by the timeframe of TNG.

    Such a peace process would, by its very nature, have been a long, protracted one, drawn out across a number of decades before reaching the state of affairs we first witness in "Encounter at Farpoint," and wouldn't have occurred instantly overnight, regardless of how significant either events were in isolation from one another.

    The Khitomer peace conference was a huge, unprecedented step in cementing that process, as was, ironically, Narendra III six decades later, but only both taken together could have brought about the political situation finally experienced by both powers in the era of the Enterprise-D.


    It came from the author, J.M. Dillard, who more often than not came up with some very interesting offscreen backstory material for the films she was novelizing, including additional material on General Chang's Bird-of-Prey, its test-run operations prior to the Praxis explosion, and what happened with Carol Marcus on the UFP colony world selected as a weapons-test target by Chang and his group.

    It certainly adds plausibility to the whole notion that Kirk would suddenly harbor virulent feelings towards the Klingon race, but there's also another TOS novel, In the Name of Honor by Dayton Ward (set not long after the events of The Final Frontier) which truly sets the stage for Kirk's abrupt change of political opinion in the sixth film.

    Among other things, it depicts
    the Klingon massacre of a prison planet population, indirectly ordered by Chancellor Gorkon, as well as Kirk's horror and disgust over the incident,
    and is simply a must-read in its own right.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  9. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Isn't everyone being a bit tough on McCoy?

    Aren't there like 100s of different species in the Federation?

    I'd expect him to concentrate on knowing their anatomy before that of an enemy.

    He's only human. I'd expect the EMH to know it and Bashir but Crusher and McCoy not to be an expert on everything. Crusher should know it because she's got a Klingon as crew.

    Even your local vet would not be able to say fix an elephant without consulting an expert or looking up some books. Its not something he or she is ever likely to encounter in a general practice.
    Its ridiculous that McCoy doesn't know much about Vulcan physiology though but thats probably got a lot to do with Vulcan's being so secretive about things.

    I'm a computer programmer but it would be like sending me a job and telling me to fix a computer that I had no experience in. I can't know every computer system and language in the world. Thats why I laugh to myself when Spock or Scott or Geordi come across alien technology and are experts in it straight away
     
  10. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, it's never anything where they come across a strange alien ship or alien control system and...

    LaForge: This looks like the primary interphase modulator here.

    *click*

    Computer Voice: Self-destruct activated. Detonation in 5 seconds.
     
  11. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Captain Captain

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    I've never had any problem with Chang's explanation: Age combined with drink.

    He was three months away from retirement suddenly and very unexpectedly thrown into a very high stakes mission for which he was not properly prepared, and after a night of heavy drinking finds himself trying to save a man's life without knowing exactly what is necessary to save him in the first place (again, as has been stated, there's no particular reason to believe anyone in the entire Federation would have the necessary knowledge to save Gorkon's life).

    I also don't see much canon issue with Kirk seriously mistrusting Klingons (really, I find the 'racist' label somewhat overstated even within the story of TUC), or with Spock being willing to force someone to answer questions.

    I understand why some would've liked the Valeris character to have actually been Saavik (I always thought this was simply because the actress wasn't available, or is that not the case?), but I don't see any reason to call Spock's reaction to her out of character. Just because we never saw Valeris before doesn't mean Spock couldn't have a very signicant relationship with her.
     
  12. ChowdaHead

    ChowdaHead Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    not odd to me at all. wouldnt you be in some sort of a shock after realizing youre being set up. your ship just fired on the klingons that you just had over for dinner, and you have no proof at all that you arent the culprit. in fact, everything points to you. he beams aboard the Kronos 1, sees death EVERYWHERE, and the chancellor is on the verge of passing away! so, after offering to help the poor guy, he realizes his anatomy is not what he is used to opperating on. he works for Starfleet. his job is to repair the human body, and any other species on board his ship. anything else is secondary. also, its not like he has had much practice time with the klingon anatomy. they are after all, up to that time, well known enemies.
     
  13. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    ^^^ These two posts!
    Well said, guys.
     
  14. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Chrisisall...is that..is that you? :wtf:
     
  15. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    Holy crap! You're here too?:lol:
    With all that Eagle build stuff I never realized you were a Trek fan!:techman:
     
  16. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oh yeah! For lack of a better term, it's a first love! :)

    I'm new as of about a week ago!
     
  17. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    Well, TUC is a Love of mine- I love all the original cast Trek movies (some more than others), but TUC just floors me every time. What a way to go out.:techman:
     
  18. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To be honest, I only think I saw it once! I know..I should be flogged for that! :crazy:

    I definitely need to check it out again.
     
  19. Chrisisall

    Chrisisall Commodore Commodore

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    Just go to the fridge or the bathroom during the Klingon translation scene,:lol:. Rien?
     
  20. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Truer words were never spoken!

    Even in Space Seed, with McCoy standing up to Khan (with a knife at his throat, no less!), "Well, either choke me or cut my throat, make up your mind!" , and "It would be most effective if you cut the carotid artery, just under the left ear." He had to be the bravest of the cast in many ways. :techman:

    If skinny little me is ever confronted with such danger, I hope to be able to channel McCoy!
     

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