Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franchises

Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by Captain Craig, Dec 29, 2011.

?

After the James Bond series who do you consider the 2nd best series?

  1. Bourne franchise

    62.5%
  2. Jack Ryan franchise

    6.3%
  3. Mission Impossible (Ethan Hunt) franchise

    28.1%
  4. XXX franchise

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Salt

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Other - please list in the thread

    3.1%
  1. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    Really? Apart from The World is not enough which i can barely tolerate the Brosnan Bonds are utter crap.. overlong commercials for watches, BMW cars, Vodka and anything else they could cram in who sponsored the movies and on top of that the stories sucked very hard.

    It's not the fault of Brosnan though.. since the 80s when he was in talks to take over but couldn't because the Remington Steele producers wouldn't let him go i always thought he'd make an excellent Bond, i.e. charming as hell with that touch of britishness around him.
    He did that well in the Bond movies but the rest was fail.
     
  2. Captain Craig

    Captain Craig Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    I agree I'll take any two Brosnan Bonds over the two Craig Bonds for any viewing.
     
  3. Aragorn

    Aragorn Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    I wonder what would've become of the Bond franchise had Die Another Day kept its style and tone of the first half instead of turning into a Roger Moore Bond movie in the second half.
     
  4. OdoWanKenobi

    OdoWanKenobi Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    Care to back that up with some evidence?
     
  5. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    That would have been one hell of a movie.. probably one of the best (even surpassing Casino Royale which i regard as the best Bond ever).. it's the best opening sequence of any Bond movie which makes the second half even more horrible because it totally wipes out and never recovers and to some was also the reason a reboot of the entire franchise was necessary (only for that iÄm grateful because we got Daniel Craig).
     
  6. AFEK ESLCAFE W

    AFEK ESLCAFE W Lieutenant Commander Newbie

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    OHMSS is objectively better than Diamonds Are Forever, Moonraker, Octopussy, A View to a Kill, Die Another Day, and Quantum of Solace.

    Only a minute minority would agree the otherway on this argument.
     
  7. captcalhoun

    captcalhoun Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    OHMSS fails for "this never happened to the other fella".

    EPIC FAIL.
     
  8. AFEK ESLCAFE W

    AFEK ESLCAFE W Lieutenant Commander Newbie

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    Connery would have improved the quality of said film in your eyes, then?
     
  9. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    Not really. :p

    You have to remember, this was all pre-internet, so I don't know of any links to back up the story. But anyone following movie magazines etc from 1989 onwards could follow the clues. I was an avid reader of the likes of Empire, Premiere etc at this time and was devouring all of them for news of the next, much-delayed Bond movie. In particular, I read an excellent article in Premiere magazine shortly after Brosnan was cast and also got some of this from Cubby Broccoli's autobiography When the Snow Melts.

    It all began when LTK underperformed in the US and immediately tabloids started saying that Dalton was to be replaced. He was able to sue two of them for libel, because Eon dutifully backed him up and denied it and, in the UK, a defendant in a libel action has to prove that a story is true to succeed. So the tabloids backed down and paid Dalton money, but ultimately, they would be proven right - he was replaced for the next JB movie.

    However, the Bond series remained in limbo and Dalton's career pretty much stalled between 1989-1995. Perhaps the nadir was when he appeared in the disastrous miniseries Scarlett, the sequel to Gone With the Wind. He was apparently telling friends that his career was over at this time. Why he wouldn't want to revive his career with a Bond movie is beyond me, if he truly did leave of his own volition.

    During this time, Joel Silver was rumoured to be trying to buy the 007 rights from Eon and to be casting Mel Gibson. There was also talk of Bond going to the small screen, with the likes of Brosnan and a pre-Schindler Liam Neeson being linked to the role. The only times one saw Timothy Dalton being talked about in the role were in interviews with, er, Timothy Dalton.

    Eventually Eon sorted out the legal issues but were told by MGM that they would have to replace Dalton. However, Cubby Broccoli was not only loyal to a fault (and a friend of Dalton's), but genuinely believed Dalton was a good Bond and was unlucky to be blamed for LTK's failure (he had a point here - it was released in the summer of Batman and other certain-to-be-hits like Ghostbusters II and Star Trek V also flopped, when competing with Burton's juggernaut). He refused. However, eventually co-producers Barbara Brocolli and Michael Wilson persuaded him that Dalton needed to be replaced.

    You have to remember that Dalton genuinely loved being Bond and was very proud of the role. I read numerous interviews with him during the hiatus, where he insisted that he would be back and laughed off the rumours that he would be replaced for the next movie. He took the part very seriously, which is why he tried to make his 007 as close to that of the books as he could, vetting lines that he didn't think Fleming would have put in Bond's mouth. The idea that, having patiently sat out the delay, he opted to walk away from a revived series of movies just did not ring true at all. The 'Dalton quits' stories were rather sceptically received even at the time. It was widely known that he wasn't box-office friendly and the studio wanted a bigger name.

    The announcement that the Bond series was back, that the new movie would be called Goldeneye and that Dalton was leaving all came on the one day. It was very clearly a package deal; Dalton's departure was clearly the only thing holding up the greenlighting of a new movie.

    I've often thought that Dalton, more than any other actor apart from maybe Brosnan, was proud of being Bond. Connery came to view it as an albatross, Moore didn't take it seriously, Lazenby viewed it as a quick step to superstardom. Dalton actually seemed to enjoy it. So the idea that he quit after 6 years of kicking his heels, waiting for the movies to restart just beggars belief. All but the most gullible and PR-company-friendly showbusiness journalists took the same view at the time.

    (Incidentally, Eon has form in this regards - when Roger Moore left, they put it about that he had decided to depart of his own choosing. However, Cubby's biography revealed that it wasn't Moore's decision. He had been told his services were no longer required, as he was too old. He was quite taken aback and disappointed to hear so, contrary to his statement at the time. Oddly, only Brosnan's dismissal was badly handled by Eon, making me think that a lot of the studio's classiness died along with Cubby. Cubby, being a friend of Dalton, glosses over the latter's departure in the biog, but it's not hard to read between the lines)

    That bigger name the studio wanted wasn't necessarily Pierce Brosnan, who was well down the shortlist. Mad Mel was offered the part but was making Braveheart and turned it down. Liam Neeson, immediately post-Schindler also declined, fancying more serious roles (like, er Star Wars and The Haunting?). The tabloids were pushing for Hugh Grant, who had just made Four Weddings, pretty much on the basis that his girlfriend looked like a Bond girl, but fortunately for us all he laughed the offer away, saying it wasn't his cup of tea. Neeson's Schindler's List co-star Ralph Fiennes (the baddie in Skyfall) was keen but he envisaged Bond as a cold, ruthless assassin. Eon, after the Dalton experience, basically said 'Don't call us, we'll call you.'

    Enter Mr Brosnan, who wanted the role a lot more than the producers wanted him and who had spent most of the last decade talking about how much he rued losing it last time out.

    Goldeneye was not expected to be a big hit. Martin Campbell was unproven as a movie director (his last movie, No Escape was neither a critical nor commercial hit) and it was felt that Bond was passe in the post Lethal Weapon, Die Hard era - not to mention the post-Cold War era. Arnie and James Cameron had out-Bonded Bond the year before with True Lies. Brosnan's only box-office hits in recent years had been Mrs Doubtfire, where he played smarmy second fiddle to Robin Williams and The Lawnmower Man, a surprise hit down to its SFX. I remember in Empire magazine's preview of 1995, they downplayed its chances of success, saying that Bond would need to be on tip-top form to hold his own against the likes of Batman Forever and, ahem, Judge Dredd.

    Goldeneye had a modest enough budget, which was increased, as MGM saw rushes from the movie and were impressed with what they saw.

    I'd also say that the idea that Goldeneye was written for Dalton doesn't stand up to any viewing of the movie. Licence to Kill was specifically written for Dalton. It's grim, humourless and possibly the least like a James Bond movie of any in the series. It's impossible to imagine it having been made had Brosnan or Sam Neill been cast as Moore's replacement.

    Whereas Goldeneye plays like a greatest hits of Bond, in the best sense of that expression. It's very much a 'give the audience what it wants' movie. It restored the one-liners, the humour, the wink to the audience, the OTT-plot (compare its satellite weaponry with LTK's drug-dealer plot), the Russian baddies, but with a twist of its own (female M, post-Cold War world, baddie who is ex-MI6 and who has good cause to dislike British Intelligence). I for one can't imagine Dalton adjusting his tie during the tank chase like Brosnan did nor can I imagine the repartee between him and M working as well as it did with Brosnan. Goldeneye was very much written as a reaction against LTK's attempt to move away from the Bond formula. It was exactly what the series needed at that time.

    (Off-topic, but I don't think Brosnan gets enough credit nowadays for reviving the fortunes of the franchise; few expected this washed up tv actor to be a success in the role - myself included)

    So, dunno if you'd count that as evidence or not but it's the best I can do as a long-term Bond-watcher.
     
  10. Beagleman

    Beagleman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    As a long-term Bond-watcher who never really followed the behind-the-scenes aspect of the series, that was a fascinating read Captaindemotion, thanks!:)
     
  11. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    ^ Thank you. Shame that some of those older magazines wouldn't put some of their archives online, I'm sure the original articles, especially the Premiere one, were more interesting than my summary, lol.
     
  12. James R

    James R Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    Bourne franchise is my favourit.
     
  13. OdoWanKenobi

    OdoWanKenobi Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    Well, ok then.:lol: While we may never hear exactly what had happened, that was a fairly compelling (and long) argument. Good show, sir.
     
  14. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    ^ Thank you. I should add that I like Dalton's Bond and thought he was hard done by but I never bought the 'He quit' argument for a second.
     
  15. Admiral2

    Admiral2 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    I voted Bourne because It's a great spy action series.

    I would pay goood money to see Tom Cruise and everyone else doing MI shot down like dogs for turning one of my favorite shows into shit.

    Salt was utter shit.

    Never watched xXx. Never intend to. It's fast and furious with ony one guy and one car at a time.

    All you whippersnappers need to learn: ONLY CONNERY WAS BOND! THE OTHERS ARE PRETENDERS!

    Jack Ryan shouldn't even be on this list, as mentioned before. For the SOAF haters, you should hear Tom Clancy's commentary about the movie. Funniest commentary ever.
     
  16. AFEK ESLCAFE W

    AFEK ESLCAFE W Lieutenant Commander Newbie

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    Agreed.

    I personally consider the original TV show and the Cruise films to be 2 separate entities.

    Agreed. Even Philip Noyce's brisk direction couldn't save that one...

    He's no Bourne, that's for sure.

    So?

    Clancy didn't complain about picking up a check so he should keep his mouth shut. Hypocrite.
     
  17. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    ^ I don't agree. What was he supposed to do, hand back the cheque because he didn't like the movie?
     
  18. Aragorn

    Aragorn Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    If Clancy doesn't have creative control in any aspect of the movie, what can he do? They're called adaptations for a reason. This was the same studio that make The Hunt for Red October. Should he have had a vision in a dream in advance about what they were going to do with The Sum of All Fears and turned them down?

    John Grisham had no say in The Chamber and he hated how the movie turned out. For A Time to Kill, he had director and script approval and even some cast approval. He felt it turned out to be a good but not great movie.
     
  19. Admiral2

    Admiral2 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    1. If they were stupid enough to contract him to do a commentary he can say whatever he pleases.

    2. I'd say he's justified in taking the check as compensation for the ruination of his original story.
     
  20. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Spy Thriller franchises, emphasis Ethan Hunt(MI) and Bourne franch

    I agree with allot except from what I have seen of Jason Bourne is plenty of fights and escape and evasion but very little spying going on. I like the other Bonds but the series as a whole went over the top long before I saw my first one in the theatre in the late 70s, thus Roger Moore's For Your Eyes Only was among my favorites because it seemed like a real mission for an actual government agent. As for Jack Ryan there was The Hunt For Red October and Clear and Present Danger where his spying was as the analyst going old school with books as the mercenary counterpart was using computers
     

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