Spoiler whore's thread! (enter at your own risk)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by Caprica_Six, Sep 1, 2005.

  1. Sharr Khan

    Sharr Khan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It'd be really complicated... not one of the brightest notions around the internet. But RDM could always surprise us and make that notion work.

    I would say, apples and oranges. Its actually easier to make the jump that Tigh and friends are Cylons then to some how make it work that a Known Cylon with many sisters is also the "Final Five" Cylon. I can accept the Final Five are different in nature some how. Not so easy to work out the logic of Sharon/Boomer's model is somehow not akin to her fellows.

    Sharr
     
  2. Peacemaker

    Peacemaker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. Note the way that argument's proponents have framed it:

    The Boomer and Athena models are physically identical but otherwise subtlely different. Three recognized Boomer as the Final Cylon.

    Okay, that argument is self-defeating. Three only has the faces of the Final Five to go by. If Boomer and Athena are physically the same, then Three wouldn't know the difference.

    It's much easier to believe that the face she saw was either a face we've not seen or the face of somebody like Socrata Thrace, who, when she died downloaded into a different body altogether. So Three saw the face of Socrata, but now Socrata lives in a different body, so the Final Cylon is still somebody in the Fleet. She just doesn't know it.
     
  3. Starwind

    Starwind Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm rather partial now to the idea it's Hera. I know D'Anna saw an adult, but what's to say she didn't see an adult version of her? She seemed pretty certain there were only Four in the fleet, but at the same time not too worried about the apparent absence of the Fifth. She knows something no one else does.

    Since Hera has no way of making her way to the baseship, I can see D'Anna lying about the number in the fleet, just so the humans aren't hounding her about the who the Fifth is too much.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
  4. Wouter2

    Wouter2 Captain Captain

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    Says who? She only saw the faces of Athena (on New Caprica) and Boomer on the hub, yet she immediatelly recognized either, and no it's not because of hair styling. Cylons can pick out individuals within models, without fail. It is no stretch at all that D'Anna could do the same in a vision, since we don't even know how the Cylons can identify themselves with such accuracy, despite them being seemingly identical.

    There is now info on the 5th: http://spoilergeeks.blogspot.com/2008/07/bsg-caprica-scoop.html
    from Mark Stern, a Sci Fi Channel exec.: the final Cylon reveal will be "organic and satisfying" and not "some day player from season one."
    Thanks for the Galactica sitrep blog, for pointing this out.

    So, the final Cylon will not be a glorified extra, it will be someone who is or was an integral part of the show.
     
  5. Peacemaker

    Peacemaker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I guess you missed the part where Cavil told D'anna that it was Boomer qua Boomer and not just another Eight.

    And you're "theory" is self-refuting by the very way you've framed it. Do you pay attention to what you write? It would mean that Three could discern Boomer from Athena within the same model.

    But the theory you and other espouse is that the Eight Model and the Final Cylon, eg. Boomer, aredifferent models. How would she be able to tell the difference between the two models if two were visually identical? She saw the faces of the Final Five. If one of those faces is identical to the face of one of the other models, then, pray tell, how could she tell the difference? What changed after her vision so that she could see the difference between Boomer and every other Eight, when all she saw, and dialog has continually affirmed is a set of faces.
    Now, you can reframe that theory, but to do so is a tacit admission that the first one is a failure.
    So, the final Cylon will not be a glorified extra, it will be someone who is or was an integral part of the show.[/quote]

    And this, as so often with you, doesn't touch what I write here about the Final Cylon, when I write it. You may want to pay better attention in the future, as I have a rather extensive paper trail.

    I've never said that the Final Cylon will be "some glorified extra." If you believe I have, then I tell you what, why don't you enter the archives and provide the relevant quotes for us all to read.
     
  6. Wouter2

    Wouter2 Captain Captain

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    It is you who needs to pay more attention or misremembers, Peacemaker. At about 12:48 in the episode "The hub", during D'Anna's first scene, the word "Boomer" is used for the first time in that episode. D'Anna: "Boomer's an 8. Shouldn't she be on the other side?". Cavil hasn't used her name, or said anything about her, yet, at this point.

    That's trivial, you might as well say that water is wet. It is well-established by now that Cylons, including those of different models (Natalie recognising Boomer in "six of one" is another example), have no problems telling other Cylons apart. And that they couldn't do so in a vision is speculation, so D'Anna could have recognized Boomer in her vision as easily as she does in "The hub", when she sees her in the flesh. After all, we don't know how they do it (we surely can't tell them apart), so who's to say if it also works in a vision?

    That last bit of my previous post here was just a spoiler and a general comment, not aimed specifically at you. I don't even know which candidate you prefer.
     
  7. kipron

    kipron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Gotta admit, the idea that Boomer is somehow an `abberation' or a `failed Eight' does fit some of the outward evidence:

    - D'Anna knew Boomer wasn't in the Fleet (Revelations).
    - D'Anna has a pretty good reason to apologise to Boomer (Rapture).
    - Athena was in the Last Supper photo, but Boomer wasn't.
    - Boomer is still in "shadow," all fearful, emo and bitter.
    - Boomer is in serious need of redemption (shooting Adama, threatening Hera).
    - Boomer is actually in a position to be redeemed (could she turn on Cavil?).
    - She was around for the Olympic Carrier incident, which could be important somehow.
    - "By your command."

    Still, a few things that don't quite sit right:

    - How can the Final Cylon be behind everything, yet not know exactly what it is?
    - If Boomer is something other than an Eght, how is it that other Eights can access her memories?
    - Boomer has been in either direct or indirect opposition to the Four ever since NC. Isn't that a problem?
    - Caprica was a sleeper agent too, and in love even. What makes her any less special?
    - There's too much it *doesn't* explain. The loss of the Olympic Carrier, the transmission of D'Annas film, "Adama is a Cylon."

    Interesting idea though.
     
  8. Wouter2

    Wouter2 Captain Captain

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    Kipron;
    -It is not certain that the Final Cylon is behind everything; if it is Boomer, she probably doesn't even realise she is the Final Cylon, just like she used to think she was human. The "Head People" may be a better candidate for being "behind everything". That she was in opposition to the final four at times is thus not really a problem - on New Caprica, the four weren't even aware they were Cylons.

    -Since Boomer can download in what appears to be, and probably is, the body of an 8, it seems clear that she is at least compatible with the 8s (if downloading is no problem, why would memory sharing be?). How this is possible (her being not an 8 - sort of, yet seemingly identical), is the weak point of this theory. However, don't count out that RDM can find some explanation for this. For example, the 8s could be a copy, perhaps with some subtle changes in their base programming/personality, of Boomer's model, only made many years later.

    -Caprica-6 was actually not a sleeper agent; she was fully aware of being a Cylon, whereas Boomer had no doubt (until "Water", at least) that she was fully human. She is the only "sleeper", of the 7 known models, that we've heard about. The Dylan Four are the only others who did not realise what they were.

    The idea for Boomer is based on those points, most of which you mentioned in some form in your post:
    1.RDM saying repeatedly that no person in the last supper picture is the fifth
    2.D'Anna saying there are four Cylons in the fleet, while also threatening to kill a number of colonials on the baseship (between those first 2 points, a lot of candidates seem to be eliminated)
    3.Boomer would be back "big time" in S4, according to writer Taylor (hasn't happened in S4.0, so I suppose it's yet to come in S4.5)
    4.Boomer is in major need of redemption and can be said to still be in the shadow (fits the Razor prophecy quite well)
    5.we have been promised that the reveal of the final Cylon will mean something; it will be "organic" and "satisfying" from a dramatic POV, not "a day player from season 1". Boomer is a fairly important character, in the show from the very beginning, has a complex relationship to a number of other characters (Adama, Tyrol, Tigh, Anders, Starbuck, Gaeta, Caprica-6, D'Anna, Athena) which could be exploited from a dramatic POV. Boomer is a very conflicted character with love/hate relationships to both colonials and Cylons, as she is a Cylon who deep-down feels more human than Cylon, yet has been rejected by the humans because of the whole sleeper agent thing (where she presumably had no influence over). Interestingly, she is also the one who put the lion's share of the rag-tag-fleet together, back in the mini.
    6.We have also been told that almost no guess has been correct (a number of weeks ago). Since she is a known Cylon, very few people would expect her to be it.
    7.there are arguably a few audiovisual hints that point to Boomer (allthough I'm aware those exists for many other characters as well, and each could be a red herring or coincidence or misinterpretation by me):

    a. the music that plays in "Revelations" when D'Anna recognizes the final four on Galactica's hangar deck, is very close to what is played when D'Anna turns her attention on Boomer for the first time on "The Hub". Could be a new theme for D'Anna personally, but IMO it is quite telling and connected to the ID of each of the five.
    b. When Tigh confesses to Adama that he is a Cylon in "Revelations", he literally says "like Boomer... [pause]...I'm one of the final five". Disclaimer: I'm cheating by putting two sentences together so the result is out of context (he's saying that he was unaware of being a Cylon, like Boomer, and thus he is one of the final five - Tigh obviosuly doesn't know who the 5th is). But I thought it was pretty remarkable that this line was written in this way, like the writers were giving a wink to the audience
    c. Early in S4.0, one of the 8ths wondered if the final five looked anything like "us" (that is, the Cylons of the 7). Since I think it is a given that the final five are human looking just like the other numbered Cylon models (so, not Kara's Viper or Jake the dog), she seems to be effectively wondering if their outward appearance might be similar to one of the 7 known models. Well, she just could be on to something here, as Boomer looks like her twinsister.
    d. D'Anna has a personal reaction to one of the FF when she recognizes it; surprise ("you?") and an apology ("I had no idea...") follow. It seems like someone she knows, wasn't very kind to and didn't expect. Anders is a perfect fit (because she very personally tried to kill him), but so is Boomer. Had the writers already decided who the Dylan four were, by this point? From what I've heard the final decision wasn't taken until "Crossroads" was filmed. In that case, the apology is quite likely aimed at the one Cylon that the writers had already firmly in mind as being the final one.

    People like Roslin or Adama or Baltar, which were on the baseship when D'Anna said there were four in the fleet, are tempting as final Cylon, but the problem is that they are in the last supper picture and RDM has again confirmed that those are not the final Cylon. So, to find other candidates then Boomer you have to either consider dead (or believed dead) characters of reasonable importance (say, Ellen Tigh or Helena Cain), or find some way to explain why D'Anna could be wrong/lying about the 5th not being in the fleet. The latter requires a theory not any less convoluted than the Boomer one, though.
    Or you can maintain that RDM is outright lying and continues to do so, but I think that's very unlikely.
     
  9. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^I sometimes think we as fans take the "Last Supper" picture way more seriously than Moore or SCI-FI promotions meant.
     
  10. Wouter2

    Wouter2 Captain Captain

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    It's not about the picture itself, it's about what RDM himself said about it. Recently he again confirmed this to Maureen Ryan, in email "none of the people in the final supper picture is the final Cylon".

    It doesn't require folding the picture or go over all the little details in the picture to find out what that means, does it? It's pretty straightforward: who is on the picture, is not the final Cylon.

    So, do you think that Ron Moore is not serious (lying, in other words) when he writes this?
     
  11. kipron

    kipron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^
    Yeah, I take Ron at his word with regards to the LS photo. He's confirmed it, I believe him.

    Gotta admit, there is a a nice bit of circularity with the Boomer theory.

    The Four seem like humans but...aren't.
    Boomer seems like an Eight but...isn't.
     
  12. flux_29

    flux_29 Commodore Commodore

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    ^ so what we saying here? In the begining, Boomer had a different body but had herself downloaded into the body of an eight (and masked herself into becoming one) so the others would'nt find her???
     
  13. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    I think what's being said is that Boomer has become fundamentally different, personality-wise, from the other Eights--so much so, she could be considered a distinct model. I'm not sure I buy that, but it's an interesting theory. It just seems like kind of a letdown to have it be Boomer, who has really had very little to do since "Downloaded."
     
  14. Wouter2

    Wouter2 Captain Captain

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    I don't think the body is different. Allthough it could be, in which case there should be a hidden program in the Cylon computers that run the downloading process, to make sure that those slightly different spare bodies (a sublty different brain or something) are used only for this special Cylon, and that this special Cylon never downloads into an "ordinary" 8 spare. Since the Cylons are programmed not to think about the 5, they might also have been programmed not to notice something like this (if they would even be inclined to pay close attention to how the whole download process is managed).

    More likely, if she is the 5th, the difference lies in the part that is uploaded/downloaded, or there is no difference at all (that is, Cylon model 8 is a carbon copy of one of the Final Five - a bit like a human who gets cloned), other then Boomer's origin and age (and experiences). She would be an early prototype, in that case.
     
  15. bigdaddy

    bigdaddy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And Moore said Starbuck was dead.

    Boomer is not the finale Cylon, can we move on yet?
     
  16. Wouter2

    Wouter2 Captain Captain

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    No.

    Lying about Starbuck is one thing (he wanted to shock us with her "death" and subsequent return), lying about what is supposed to be one of the central mysteries of the show (and presented as something the viewers could reason out or at least guess) is quite another. How lame would it be to present Roslin as the final Cylon after he has said three times in interviews that it's not her?

    Anyway, 2 pieces of spoilerish news:
    -There is a quite interesting Jamie Bamber interview here: http://www.galactica.tv/battlestar-galacti...nterview-2.html

    Not really any spoilers, but it does give some feel about the general direction of S4.5 and what Lee will do in it. Some interesting discussion on the more mythical elements of the show (which Bamber doesn't like all that much, it seems) and on Lee's ambition.

    -More news on the final Cylon: the reveal won't take long in S4.5, as expected: "If a few people had their way, the Cylon's identity would've been revealed already," a source told SyFy Portal. "They are pivotal in the final batch of episodes, and we're not going to wait until the end to show you who it is." http://www.syfyportal.com/news425206.html
     
  17. kipron

    kipron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's entirely possible that she really did die, and that S4 Kara is something else.
     
  18. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Hints of her feeling like she was outside her own body early in season four definitely seemed to suggest this, but whatever happened to Starbuck has yet to be revealed.
     
  19. chrinFinity

    chrinFinity Captain Captain

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    It's Cottle.
     
  20. bigdaddy

    bigdaddy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We will find out sooner rather than later....

    http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season4/cylon.html
     

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