Spoiler? who here has read the good that men do?

Discussion in 'Enterprise' started by KimMH, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. KimMH

    KimMH Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm about 1/4 way through the Mangels/Martin book in which Trip is revealed to have not actually died in the way TATV indicates. Any opinions on the book from people who've read it? I don't mind spoilers myself - you can tell me!
     
  2. Mach5

    Mach5 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I liked it. It was far from brilliant, but it was fun. Nice little peace of damage control.

    Enjoy the rest of the book! :D
     
  3. JiNX-01

    JiNX-01 Admiral Admiral

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    I really liked it. It was an interesting way to "unkill Trip," as Margaret Clark, editor of the Enterprise novels, put it when she contacted Paramount to get the OK to reverse the insult that was This Ain't The Valentine. And she says that she made the call even before the NOT.DEAD. Revolution. ;)

    As an aside, I had Connor autograph the page where we got the "not dead" Easter egg in the book.
     
  4. Mach5

    Mach5 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's cool! I'm curious, what did Connor say about the fact that Trek Lit resurrected Trip? Surely, someone asked for his comment.
     
  5. Reanok

    Reanok Commodore Commodore

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    I really like this book. I was so glad Margaret and the authors spoke up about how unhappy they were about the finale and Margaret asked Paramount's permission to change things before the book was written.I really thought it was clever how they decided to unkill Trip. I've read it several times.It's my favorite Enterprise novel besides the Expanse by J.m.Dillard.:bolian:
     
  6. flux_29

    flux_29 Commodore Commodore

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    The Good: I found it to be a nice end to Enterprise as apossed to how These Are The Voyages ended. A good plot of how and why Trip 'died' the taster that the Earth-Romulan war is not far off, and it even continues with the whole Trip-T'pol thing.

    The Bad: That it included jake and nog (yes i know they needed to be in it for the discovery, but still).
     
  7. Penguin

    Penguin Commander Red Shirt

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    I read it and liked it very much.

    Glad that the TATV crap has been undone.

    Enjoy the book and those that follow.
     
  8. Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Flying Spaghetti Monster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    LOL what is the easter egg? What happens.

    I liked it, though it's not perfect. I'm trying to get into Kobyashi Maru but it is hard. I mean he almost lost me at the prologue using all thos Klingon words, makes it difficult to read.... then the heavy handed exposition in the first scene... but I'm trying. As a writer, exposition sucks to write, and it also sucks to read. My philosophy is: avoid it whenever possible. Even if it's not possible, avoid it anyway. If your story is good the readerwill figure it out.
     
  9. commodore64

    commodore64 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I really thought it was subpar. Not only was the writing juvenile, but most of the characters seemed like clownish versions of themselves.
     
  10. Mach5

    Mach5 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You already said that like a gazillion times. How about some elaborating? You of all people know how to speak your mind, IIRC.
     
  11. JiNX-01

    JiNX-01 Admiral Admiral

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    I asked if he was aware of it. IIRC, he said Margaret Clark had a chance to talk to him about it (Shore Leave, 2006?). I don't believe he has read it. He really is OK with having been "killed off."

    When I get home to my scanner/printer, I'll scan and post the page.
     
  12. KimMH

    KimMH Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well I finished the book and I really appreciate all your input! It wasn't the best TrekLit I've ever read - been at it since 1982 - but quite passable and where it counts - it undoes the damage of TATV. I am interested in following Trip on his further adventures and am also now very interested in some Andor-centric lit - esps the Aenar.

    I'd love Greg Cox to do it - his work on The Eugenics Wars is fantastic and he is a writer worthy of the charge! And if you're interested in more info about the Augments it's an excellent supplement!

    I too was a little miffed about Jake and Nog horning into the book but recognized the value of presenting it as a mystery to be solved centuries in the future - and I liked both the boys - they reminded me on DS9 how conflicted young men can be - they want to be brave and independent and they want ther moogies, too. Reminded me of my own.;)
     
  13. trj

    trj Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    good book,loved the way it trashed and even made fun of tatv.:techman:
     
  14. JiNX-01

    JiNX-01 Admiral Admiral

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    Kobyashi Maru is book 2. I'm still reading it so I don't have much of an opinion.
     
  15. commodore64

    commodore64 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sure.

    The writing is juvenile, meaning I think the writer might be better at comic books. The actual patterns aren't terribly interesting, he uses simple words to convey his feelings and has done this in other books as well. I wonder if the target reader was sixth grade. What do I mean by better at comic book writing? His idea to keep Trip alive is interesting, but that's about it. I like books that go beyond just "interesting idea."

    The characters except Trip seemed like alternate versions of themselves.

    Archer seemed confused and indecisive the entire book. Archer is one thing: decisive. He has lots of bad qualities that could be highlighted: broodish, moody, proud, impulsive, sometimes dark, martyr-like, etc. He's also not the type of guy to sit back. And in this book, he does that a lot. I don't think the writer had a good beat on his character. I think when writing it's important to like and treat all the characters with love.

    T'Pol also seemed like an emotional mess. Now, the writer himself indicated I didn't like season 3 T'Pol -- that's not true. I think season 3 T'Pol was a character in transition. And yet, season 4 showed the end of that transition and for the most part, TATV did as well. T'Pol may be occasionally emotional or have emotions, but she's not a mess. I think the writer needs to treat characters with the love they deserve, not sacrifice characters to show love.

    I liked the characters for the most part as they appeared on the television show and like books that capture that essence. For example, "What Price is Honor" I think is probably the best at this. I'm hard on Enterprise books, mostly because I think they have great material to work with and deliver such terrible results.
     
  16. Mach5

    Mach5 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ You may be right about Archer, though I never really saw his character as truly consistent, but I don't exactly have any solid counterarguments either.

    I disagree on T'Pol though. All through season 4 she appeared to be a complete emotional mess, at least to me. And in this novel, she had to deal with the fact that suddenly she was basically all alone ("mother, daughter, lover, all gone" as M&M's put it), and Archer wasn't much of a company since he was guilt-ridden over lying to others (especially her) about Trip's death. BTW, Archer delivering the (fake) sad news to Trip's parents was a powerful moment, at least to me.

    And you mention TATV showing the end of T'pol's transition. Well, according to this book, TATV events never happened in 2161, and they didn't happen the way they did in that holodeck simulation. The whole point of TGTMD was to rewrite TATV, the episode in which none of the ENT cast really felt "in character" to me (the least of all Blalock).
     
  17. commodore64

    commodore64 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think he may've been inconsistent occasionally, but he was in my opinion never "not himself." I never said to myself, "Wow - Archer would never do that" errr except Harbinger I thought he was over the top. I'm tough on the writers, but I do think they had a beat on Archer -- they got him. They knew his weaknesses and his strengths. Mangels didn't. I'll be interested in reading Kobashi Maru (well, not really since I haven't liked the other books he's written) ... maybe "interested" isn't the right word.

    I see T'Pol as a together woman who is interested in emotion, mostly because they're unusual and she doesn't quite understand them. I think T'Pol would miss Trip, but not be all-consumingly devastated by it. Afterall, she didn't seem devastated by her mother. She shed a tear and then didn't really mention it again. (No doubt she was affected, but dealt with it by exploring the Kir'Shara and being reflective about it.) To me, that's T'Pol. Having her crumble is out of character and really only serves Trip.

    Blalock didn't hate TATV because Trip died. According to her quote, she didn't appreciate Frakes and Sirtis having center stage and didn't feel it treated her character well. I agree.

    Yes, I realize it declared TATV never happened. What I meant is TATV ends an arc and kind of begins a new T'Pol based on apparently what happened in the six or so years since season 4.
     
  18. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not the best STAR TREK novel in recent years by a longshot...but it was something that was going to happen because of the controversy and Epic Fail of "TATV." Face it, much worse writers could have penned it. Just think of the countless flop novels out there on the market dating back to the first movie and earlier where the writers couldn't put decent dialogue in ANYONE'S mouth. TGTMD isn't perfect by any standard but its superior to "TATV" in almost every regard and in the end it helps salve the bad rug burns we got from the finale.
     
  19. Mach5

    Mach5 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Then you would probably love one of his reactions in Kobayashi Maru (a book that could be dubbed "Harbinger 2.0" by some people, but not because of Archer). He sorta does this reverse psychology thingy.
    I was never under the impression that she was all-consumingly devastated. But I think it was the mating bond that made her unable to truly cope. A sense that Trip wasn't really gone. Had he been really dead, she probably would have had less trouble moving on.

    One could interpret her Kir'Shara studying as burying herself in it to avoid dealing.

    Hm, I'm on the fence on this one. BTW, don't read "Kobayashi Maru" :)

    No cast member was upset about Trip, not even Trinneer (who even felt flattered IIRC). It was Frakes & Sirtis stealing the show that was the problem.

    To me, ENT's every arc ended with Terra Prime. TATV simply felt too much off, that's why the book was written in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2009
  20. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I have yet to pick that one up. Even read any of it.

    I don't want any spoilers per se...but is it any good?
     

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