[spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by NotLKH, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Out of my brain on the 5:15
    In both Space Seed and ID, Khan is almost sympathetic, until he goes "full augment". We feel for him because he's being blackmailed and used as a weapon by Marcus. We can see why, in another Universe Scotty, (and Kirk) might admire him. Of course, Marcus underestimated Khan and Kirk falls for some of Khan's rhetoric, and that goes back to theme of superior man and superior ambition.
     
  2. thumbtack

    thumbtack Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Location:
    Ankh-Morpork

    With 2 of the 3 of them saying Khan will return in a more Khan-centric movie, you will likely get that which you ask for, but do not actually want.
     
  3. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Great Britain
    They already messed him up the last time. Let's move beyond villains seeking vengeance and see something different.
     
  4. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    You don't actually know one thing about I want, which is typical.
     
  5. Opus

    Opus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Location:
    Bloom County
    That's what she said.
     
  6. Elder Knight

    Elder Knight Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Location:
    SE USA
    There were still earlier controversies, such as Laurence Olivier playing Othello in a 1960s film, and Peter Ustinov as Charlie Chan in the 1980s. Of course, Hollywood used to let Caucasians play other races in important roles (e.g., Lost Horizon, The Good Earth), but they were supposed to have moved beyond that at some point.
     
  7. Admiral James Kirk

    Admiral James Kirk Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2001
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Ricard Montalban may have been Mexican by birth but he was every bit as white as Heston. Both of his parents were born and raised in Spain and immigrated to Mexico before he was born. The only diff between Montalban and Heston was the authenticity of their accents.
     
  8. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Coming back to this for a minute, it's interesting to read Orci's comments about this in the talkback at trekmovie: http://trekmovie.com/2013/06/24/sti...odds-and-ends-and-general-discussion/#5132886

    Right there he says that the story is about just that the individual is unique. It wasn't the genetic engineering that defined the character, it could have been any particular characteristic as long as the character was unique. That's part of my issue of why Khan isn't defined enough.

    I think the main story that he talks about there is a good one and that he's right in that it did not need Khan. I think adding Khan in as a sort of canon window dressing just isn't that great and I'd prefer that they wrote a story that was tailored to fit him if they have to use him. I'd say they could do that for the 3rd movie, but I think they might have already missed a lot of their opportunity.
     
  9. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Out of my brain on the 5:15
    Truth be told, I would have preferred Harrison not be Khan.
     
  10. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    KhanPrime was never in the same room with the Klingons, so we wouldn't really know. Likewise, we never saw anyone try to shoot him with a phaser either (we did see him crush a phaser with his bare hands, of course).

    Very true... at least, until Harrison started getting all weepy about his (for some reason cryogenically frozen) fellow supersoldiers, at which point most of us would pull a collective "Hey, wait a minute..."

    When has this ever NOT been true of Khan? Hell, even the connection in Wrath of Khan was pretty thin; you could have inserted any random Klingon warlord we've never heard of and have him blaming Kirk for some other equally random shit he derangedly thinks Kirk did to him (killed his brother on Organia? Humiliated him at Troyus? Whatever) and it would be basically the same movie.

    Come to think of it... with some VERY minor tweaks, Khan and Kruge are almost interchangeable characters. You'd have to insert fifteen seconds of dialog to explain how Khan got his hands on a Romulan bird of prey (about as much as time as Harrison spent explaining how Marcus found his ship) and replace the word "Klingons" with "superior" and then you're basically good to go.

    Let's be honest with ourselves: Khan wasn't special or memorable as a character. Khan was special and memorable because Ricardo Montalban was a phenomenal actor.

    And strictly speaking, it never WAS. What defined Khan's character was two things:

    1) A human being who is effectively super-human, who was CREATED to be super-human, whose belief in his superiority is indeed justified (which is scary enough) and thus becomes the justification for an unbroken string of atrocities.

    2) An evil genius who cleverly manipulates others into giving him the advantage and then mercilessly slits their throats (and/or crushes their skulls) when that advantage manifests.

    IOW, Khan is a murdering psychopath with allusions of grandeur. He was never really that much more than that, and never would have been in the hands of a less talented actor.

    But that would involve quite a bit more character development than we have ever seen from Khan before. Apart from the Pimping of McGyvers, Khan actually had less character development in TOS than Kor, and FAR less of a reason to get his own movie (except that maybe "The Wrath of Kor" isn't quite as catchy a title).

    Besides, with all the abilities hinted at but never seen in TOS, this movie did a lot more for Khan's characterization than Khan did for the STID.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013

Share This Page