Spock's full name

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Claudia, May 19, 2009.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Singh and Kaur are supposed to be the universal male and female surnames for Sikhs, not their only names. Sikhs always have first names, even when they don't use the Singh or Kaur surnames.

    In a large society, especially a planetwide one with six billion individuals to distinguish, it would just be irrational to require everyone to go by only a single name, especially when most such names are only five letters long and begin with S and/or end in K. There's no possible way to get six billion distinct names out of that. Having family names is only logical -- especially given the evident importance Vulcans ascribe to their family ties.
     
  2. Myasishchev

    Myasishchev Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Location:
    America after the rain
    I meant surnames. Sorry to be vague--I figured everyone knew I didn't mean given names.;)

    And if everyone has the same surname, it's effectively the equivalent of no one having a surname...
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Not necessarily. Sikhs aren't limited to only two names; they can have a third. And there are cultures that have no surnames in the Western sense but have long strings of given names, patronymics, and so forth. For instance, the man that Westerners called "Saddam Hussein" was actually Saddam Hussein 'abd al-Majid al-Tikriti. "Hussein" wasn't his surname, since he had none; it was just his second given name. By Arabic naming convention, he was properly referred to simply as "Saddam" (his ism or given name), but the rest of his name served to distinguish him from other Saddams. Hussein was his father's name, 'abd al Majid means "servant of the Glorious One" (one of the 99 names of God; most Muslim names have some form of "servant of God" in them), and al-Tikriti means "of Tikrit," his place of birth.
     
  4. The Laughing Vulcan

    The Laughing Vulcan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Location:
    At The Laughing Vulcan's party...
    Actually, all Sikhs have three names, just that not every Sikh uses the surname. Every Sikh male's second name is Singh, and Kaur for the women. The given name comes from the Guru Granth. A prayer is said, and the book allowed to fall open. The syllable to which the priest points will be the first syllable of the name. The third name, surname is the family name, but is actually a holdover from the caste system, indicating which caste you belong to, and subcaste.

    I find the Icelandic (Scandinavian?) tradition appealing, where surnames are either father's son, or mother's daughter.
     
  5. captcalhoun

    captcalhoun Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Location:
    everywhere
    i like Sir Terry Pratchett's spoof of that: Glod Glodssonssonssonsson
     
  6. Geoff Thorne

    Geoff Thorne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Location:
    Lost Angles
    His full name is Arthur Conan Doyle Spock.

    Duh.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    That's a general, ages-old Germanic thing, but it has gone out of fashion everywhere else besides Iceland after the 19th century - at which time even the most barbaric corners of the Nordic nations began to have universal taxation and thus also universal records which more or less required the invention of surnames. Sometimes, the last iteration of patronymics would get turned into a surname for record-keeping purposes, so Hansson or Jensen would become a "true" surname, now to be carried by all the following generations even if the father was named Olaf or Sven or something else than Hans or Jens.

    Whether Vulcans would be worried about things like tax records, or whether they'd be perfectly happy about having six hundred guys with identical names populating the planet at any given time, is unknown. We get lots of coexisting T'Pels in Star Trek, but we never learn if they have a distinguishing element to their names. They might just as well live without, there never being anything unclear about who was the wife of whom. (Or if there was, there'd be an ancient ritual involving lots of violence that would solve the problem to logical satisfaction.)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. Trent Roman

    Trent Roman Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2001
    Location:
    The Palace of Pernicious Pleasures
    For all we know, all Vulcans receive a unique identification number at birth which can then be used to governmental and services purposes. Vulcans don't strike me as the type to complain that bureaucracy 'depersonalizes' them.

    Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
     
  9. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I don't know, they seem to place a lot of importance on that Bill of Rights of theirs, which guaratees the "fundamental personal freedoms of every Vulcan citizen". Still, I like the idea of a designated number or some similar convention to aid identification. It reminds me of the Nasats, and their lengthy "designations", as revealed in "Balance of Nature". So, there may be many P8 Blues but only one P8BlueTS27Q6. Vulcans may well have something similar, but given the importance placed on family lineage in their culture, it would be rather odd for their naming conventions to disregard their ancestors. As for the "s...k" idea, I'm certain the "Vulcan's Noun" books established Sarek/Spock's family as part of Surak's ancestral house. Perhaps members of this extended clan tend to take s...k names in honour of Surak, but this means nothing for wider Vulcan naming conventions.
     
  10. captcalhoun

    captcalhoun Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Location:
    everywhere
    don't you Americans have national insurance numbers or something similar for tax records?

    bureaucratically yours, GR434740A (not my real number)
     
  11. garamet

    garamet Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2001
    Location:
    Where the mountains meet the sea
    And here I was thinking his Mom named him after Sagan... ;)
     
  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    National insurance? In America? If only. We do have Social Security numbers, though.
     
  13. Myasishchev

    Myasishchev Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Location:
    America after the rain
    I was under the impression the whole point was to do away with and forget the caste system.:confused:
     
  14. The Laughing Vulcan

    The Laughing Vulcan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Location:
    At The Laughing Vulcan's party...
    If only! Some things are a little too enduring, and when you have a societal system stretching back 3000 years or more, versus a religion which is only formally 300 years old, then some things are a little harder to tackle than the easy stuff like not killing, stealing or coveting an ass.

    You'll find that it's the more religious minded Sikhs who drop the third name, not through a lack of caste sensibility. All that said, the lines are blurring somewhat. The Sikh community isn't as caste conscious as the Hindu majority, and intercaste marriages do occur. The evolution is slow, but change is occuring. You're certainly not expected to be Bajoran about it and do the work that your caste predicates. While my parents are of the same caste, neither of them are tailors, in fact many in my father's family are teachers, and while my mother trained as a teacher, her father was career military. I look forward to the day when names are just pleasing sounds.
     
  15. Myasishchev

    Myasishchev Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Location:
    America after the rain
    Interesting stuff. Thanks for explaining it. :)
     
  16. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Location:
    Lotus Land, eh
    It would seem that all Vulcan first names are unpronounceable since we never get told any of them. T'Pau, T'Pol, Surak etc. All use only one name. Good thing there's only 10,000 of them. It'll clear up some confusions. ;)

    X
     
  17. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    Ok, for one thing, that's only in the Abramsverse, not the Prime universe. And the whole 10,000 Vulcan's let thing was cleared up in an interview with Orci/Kurtzman, where they said that that number didn't include Vulcans who were off world at the time.
     
  18. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    I'm pretty sure xman was joking.
     
  19. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Location:
    The Bay Area
    I thought it was Sherlock Holmes Spock.
     
  20. Deranged Nasat

    Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Pah! Everybody knows Sherlock Holmes is a fictional creation, not a real person. Spock on the other hand...