Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Mr_Homn, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Something like that would definitely go a long way to retroactively making "sons of mogh" a better episode within the greater continuity as well, because it's not such a crappy ending for a great character.
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The height of irony being all Gowron would have to do is tell "Rodek" the truth. "Your brother cost you your honor, then wiped your mind and tossed you aside like garbage. He destroyed your life, but you can get it back by killing him!"
     
  3. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I can definitely hear that in Gowron's voice. Nice.
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's actually happening in a novel. Kurn/Rodek gets into some kind of accident that starts undoing Bashir's mind wipe (which was really a type of suppression) and realizes "Worf...you did something to me..."
     
  5. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    I can totally hear Gowron saying that. I'm going to now pretend this is what actually happened, :klingon:

    I can't imaging TPTB didn't think of this also. There must have been some type of scheduling issues with Tony Todd. The way Sons of Mogh ended, I just knew we'd see him again. Letting that be the end of things was too "TNG."
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No...TNG would have found a way for Kurn's situation to be resolved without Worf having to have his memory blanked.
     
  7. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    I think you meant too "VOY."

    TNG mostly followed through with big event episodes.
     
  8. Tom Riker

    Tom Riker Lieutenant

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    Gotta hand it to Worf. When he broke his back he begged Riker to kill him, but he was too chicken. When Kurn realizes he has nothing to live for, Worf mans up and doesn’t hesitate.
     
  9. John Mason

    John Mason Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Could be anywhere really...
  10. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes, that is probably more accurate.
     
  11. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One thing that's always bugged me and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere: wtf happened to Martok's bitch-slapped son from Way Of The Warrior? Unless I missed something, feels like he's never mentioned again, and fact that Worf was the one who dishonored him doesn't seem any impediment to him being accepted into M's house.
     
  12. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Knowing Klingon customs he was probably dishonored for being slapped around like a little bitch and committed ritual suicide.

    Actually J.G. Hertzler remembered Drax being he used him in his Left Hand of Destiny novels.
     
  13. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    This is one of the things DS9 was powerfull in. By NOT coming up with tidy, neat little packages that left everybody happy. But sometimes having things ending in a way that made you feel uncomfortable. Made you feel that things weren't completely right.
    That's what I found powerfull about the ending of Sons Of Mogh. Yeah, I don't agree with what Worf did. But the fact that DS9 had the stones to sometimes show other ways out then the clear, cookie-cutter perfect endings of TNG.... That's why I love DS9.
     
  14. Jerikka Dawn

    Jerikka Dawn Commander Red Shirt

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    I think the episode had a great ending. What was awful and very un-Klingon was what Worf did to Kurn and it pissed me off. That made the episode good.
     
  15. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Kurn was suicidal. He wanted Worf to kill him; failing that, plan B was to kill himself by any means necessary.

    Last time I checked, assisted suicide is illegal even when the victim suffers from an incurable, painful disease.
    This is NOT a morally 'clean' thing to do. Quite the opposite.

    Now - finding a way for your brother to live instead of snuffing him with a dagger is morally reprehensible?

    As for memories - do you remember what you had for lunch on 14 august, when you were 7? We lose memories all the time.
    There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were. They didn't became blank slates, vegetables.

    Losing one's memories != dying. NOT even close.
     
  16. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Assisted suicide is legal in The Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Columbia. In the United States it's legal in the states of Oregon, Washington and Montana.

    Kurn didn't "lose" his memories, they were stripped from him without his permission. The being who was Kurn cease to exist, Worf's brother was no more. Although yes the body continued.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  17. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And what about the rest (read - vast majority) of the world?

    And memories are 'stripped' from us without our permission all the time AKA we forget.

    As for the rest - as said:
    There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were. They didn't became blank slates, vegetables.
    Losing one's memories != dying. NOT even close.

    Nor did Kurn.
     
  18. Jerikka Dawn

    Jerikka Dawn Commander Red Shirt

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    I disagree. What Kurn wanted was Mauk-to'Vor, an honorable Klingon death to make up for the disgrace upon the House of Mogh and get into Stovokor, which his brother could give him -- all within the confines of Klingon customs, morals, and laws. Where Worf screwed up the first time was not taking a leave of absence to do it elsewhere either by ritual or by fighting an enemy as warriors. He should never have considered performing Mauk-to'Vor on Deep Space Nine.

    Then, to compound the problem more, Worf ends up making his brother betray the Empire, leading to Kurn killing a Klingon warrior for doing his duty in service to the Empire. Yes, Kurn made his choices, but at least before this, Kurn could at least say he had some honor if only to himself. Yes, he was in disgrace before, but at least that wasn't his own doing. Now his "dishonor is complete."

    What Worf does next is strip him of his identity and memories of being a proud Klingon warrior. Oh .. and Julian goes along with it without Kurn's permission.

    As far as this episode goes - -- Fuck Worf.

    "Kurn, Son of Mogh" died without honor and there won't be any songs about his heroic battle with Julian's engram scrambler.

    --and that's why the ending wasn't awful. It made me angry at Worf.
     
  19. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Honor this, honor that..
    Heaven this, heaven that..
    ..So it's OK to kill your brother in cold blood.
    What non-sense.

    To make this acceptable to me - or to Worf - would be to stretch moral relativity past its breaking point, past the point it becomes grotesque.

    Who knows - maybe the day after you do such a thing, FKnight, you can watch a stranger rape and kill your extended family - and do nothing to stop him, because it's "OK" to do so according to his morals.


    In general, I find morals similar to the ones that require a brother to kill another for such 'pie in the sky' reasons objectively non-sense.
    The only correspondent in earth cultures was human sacrifice due to religious reasons - which I also find morally indefensible.

    "strip him of his identity"?
    How may times must I repeat this until it sinks in?:
    There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were. They didn't became blank slates, vegetables.
    Losing one's memories != dying. NOT even close.

    Kurn is quite alive - and his identity a well. One's identity/personality doesn not change merely because one has amnesia.

    "Fuck Worf?"
    Really?
    That's 'good going, Worf'. You made the right choice.

    And anyone who would tell you differently - well, let's just say I would not be comfortable at all to have him standing behind me, with a kitchen knife in his hands. Even if he's family. It wouldn't take much for him to snuff me out - just a bad mood on his part.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    While I personally find Kurn being alive but operating under a new identity preferable to him being dead, I can't say that I agree with some of the positions espoused above.

    Regrettably, the person whose opinion is most pertinent to the situation isn't in a position to express an opinion on the situation.