Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Mr_Homn, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That ending was unnecessarily awkward. So it was for nothing seeing that Worf got his honor back and Kurn would have gotten his.

    A weird turn for a classic character.

    Strange thing, before the operation, Kurn had simply passed out from being drunk. That means someone sedated and brought him to Dr. Bashir.

    How did Worf convince Julian to do the procedure without Kurn's permission? Wouldn't that be considered unethical and even illegal?

    And when exactly did Worf get his honor restored? He joined Martok's house, but the House of Mog was dismembered or something.

    Either way, Worf made it up to almost being chancellor-if they had left Kurns character alone up until then....
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I could have seen Kurn just grumpily signing a form that says Worf is his guardian in regards to all decisions regarding medical procedures.
     
  3. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Then that scene has to be shown, or it's bad storytelling.
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^
    I get that you don't like the episode and are reaching for reasons to validate that dislike for it, but don't you think that's a stretch? These are episodes limited to about 45 minutes of airtime.
     
  5. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    no... it's not a stretch at all, and i don't try to reach for reasons to dislike something. The problems with the ending of this episode are very apparent enough.

    If required information is needed for the story to make sense, then it has to be shown. Otherwise it's sloppy story telling and we are left with the outcome of this episode which paints Worf as both dishonorable and scheming, Dr. Bashir as one hell of a scumbag of a doctor.

    Seriously. Erasing someone's memory without consent. That is almost as bad as murder, some would argue it is worse (Probably Kurn). It is completely unethical and immoral. If there is an explanation for it, like you put forth, it MUST be shown or at least told to justify such an action. This isn't one of those situations like "Oh Sisko changed into a new uniform, how did THAT happen? I need an explanation!"... This is required information if you care about the integrity of the characters.

    Also, the episode itself doesn't really gel with your explanation, because if Kurn had given consent there would be no need for all the secrecy.
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Seems you have all the answers then.
     
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I see a lot of posts trashing the ending, but few suggesting a better outcome for Kurn under the circumstances.

    It's not like Worf knew he'd get his honor back, and I can't see it being a kindness to tear Kurn out of whatever life he'd built for himself in the meantime.

    I don't blame Worf for choosing the solution he did over killing his brother, even if it wasn't the Klingon thing to do, because as established, he isn't quite Klingon.
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...Which Klingons do often enough, and consider a duty rather than a crime.

    Really, blatant disregard of an inferior's or chattel's concerns is the consistently portrayed Klingon Way. If said inferior or dependent is a blood relative, that's all the more reason to cast all sentiment aside and do the Warrior Thing.

    As pointed out above, Worf had already tentatively tried to suggest the soft approach and gotten vilified for it, in "Birthright". That'd make him less likely to publicly go human again; if anything, he grew more Klingon again during his DS9 years.

    It's not that Worf would have been inconsistent or evil or anything. He was just Worf, our adorable slaughterer and wife-beater, made more popular than ever by the addition of those qualities to his character. No, it's solely a question of whether Bashir should have treated a Klingon patient as a human one.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I never really noticed the issue until I read this thread.

    We go from Kurn being drunk and passed out, to Kurn being on the operating table and Julian asking Worf if he's sure if he wants to go through with the procedure.

    Bashir doesn't argue that he can't do it without permission from Kurn himself, (which I think someone like Bashir would have), he just agrees to do the whole thing.

    Worf doesn't have the rank to go to the C.M.O and order him to wipe someone else's memory.

    It creates a messy situation because Worf could have just asked Kurn to let his memory be erased to get a new life, but in all likelihood Kurn would be offended by the whole thing.

    So that means it was done without his consent, because they knew he would never agree to it.

    OTOH, I supposed if he were in Worf's custody, it would be easier to push it through. I mean, the guy was suicidal. But geeez..

    One lesson here--if you're drunk and depressed, don't ever do it in front of Worf, lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  10. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The writers probably knew they were going to do it eventually, because this wasn't the first time they'd done so to Worf!
     
  11. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    I thought it was sad, but it worked. Worf tried to give his brother an honorable death, but Starfleet stopped him. After that, his brother was in agony and Worf loved him too much to let him suffer for his sake. He had no idea when he might get his honor back or if he'd keep it while walking the line between 2 cultures. If there were a battle he could have sent his brother to die in, then I think he would have done that, but as it were, he did the best thing he could do. That's what makes it so tragic. I think that we don't see him mention his brother when he gets his honor back because who would he say something like that to? He wouldn't, not even to Jadzia unless it was very quietly in the middle of the night at some point. I think he carries a lot inside of him and he's used to not sharing much. Klingon warriors aren't prone to spilling their feelings much anyway. FWIW, I liked his brother as a character too.
     
  12. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah , you ignored the rest of the sentence that you half quoted. I think its fair to say that any normal klingon would consider this solution to be worse than death.

    I understand worfs half human, although I dont think that really excuses him at all. Many humans including myself would consider a total memory wipe a worse fate than death.
     
  13. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Kurn wasn't a "normal" Klingon. I doubt "normal" Klingons would consider him a Klingon at all thanks to the repercussions of Worf's actions and Gowron publicly stripping the Mogh of House of everything. It's reasonable to ask whether in Kurn's case if his fate is actually worse than suicide?
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I suppose it would be interesting to ask the general public whether they'd rather be dead or be given a new chance at a decent life, but without their memories.

    Too bad there's no Klingon public to ask.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Yup, did that for emphasis, to address an issue rather than to address your sentence. Sorry!

    Why should that be of any concern? It's not punishment that Worf is imposing on Kurn. It is aid. The point is to liberate Kurn of the burden of having to live a wronged life. Killing him is one way to end his life and let him try out another one (if one believes in life after death, that is). Killing his personality and giving him a new one is another. Nobody is concerned about old Kurn's welfare or feelings, because old Kurn is spoiled goods. But there may now be a new Kurn in this life or the next. And Kurn might actually appreciate the former prospect, the technical impossibility of such appreciation aside.

    Granted, old-fashioned Klingons might balk. But they balk at all modern nonsense such as bandages or ranged weapons. There are plenty of modern Klingons around.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Distorted Humor

    Distorted Humor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There is a few episodes of DS9 that I disagree with the ethics both on a right-wrong level and also out did not buy the character would do that. (another that comes to mind is used WMD to "exchange" colonies...

    But the mind wipe is up there with that on a more personal level. Think B5 did it much better with the "Death of Personality" being like capital punishment.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Is Kurn making every effort to get himself killed at the earliest opportunity really any better?
     
  18. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    True, but you have to realize how odd Klingons are. Deliberatly getting yourself killed by someone else's hand is considered ok and will get you into Klingon heaven.

    Killing yourself directly is dishonorable and you'll go to Stova Kor or whatever they call it.

    You have to figure that Kurn or the average Klingon would see getting his or her's memory wiped and starting over as a new person the coward's way out.

    A human in Kurn's sitiation would have thought, "Ok, good, I have shelter, food and friends. I 'll rebuild from here and get all my family honor and wealth back one day, I swear it."

    Nope, not a Klingon. They have to be soldiers, in Klingon society, at all times, and they refuse to compromise with any other situation.

    With that type of thinking Kurn would totally freak out if he knew what happened to him.

    If he had just hung in there, he would have gotten his honor back and a lot more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So...a non-average Klingon dealt with a Klingon in a non-average situation in a non-average manner...

    I think the episode soundly established that Kurn had absolutely no interest in just waiting around. He was actively trying to get himself killed, and possibly endangering others in the process. If Worf hadn't done what he did, Kurn would have been dead one way or another long before Worf got his honor back.

    Frankly I have no idea how I'd handle it if I had a friend who was making obvious efforts to kill themselves on a regular basis and couldn't force them to get help.
     
  20. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I meant normal klingon relative to worf. As in he wasn't raised by humans, he didn't grow up in a human world with human views and beliefs influencing his development.

    He grew up a klingon, in a klingon world, with normal klingon beliefs... And I think it's fairly easy to assume that a klingon with that background and belief system would absolutely hate the idea of a memory wipe/ false identity. They'd probably consider it a dishonorable lie as well as the cowardly way out.