Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

Discussion in 'Star Trek - Original Series' started by Joska Daro, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    But what about the mirror universe characters arriving on “our” Enterprise? Is that an illusion Talosian-style, then?

    I hope you don’t mind that I disagree. IMHO, that’s such a big stretch that I find myself unable to estimate the end of it. This whole concept of alternate realities popping instantly into existence from practically nowhere would require some kind of intelligent design by somebody like a Q (maybe the peace loving Halkans did have a Q as their guardian angel?).

    I also find it somewhat problematic that the pacifist Halkans, who are afraid their dilithium could be abused to harm somebody else, would have no problems on the other hand to put Kirk and company to a character test with a high probability they could get harmed or killed. For a Q that could be a completely different issue…

    On the other hand, what exactly did Spock do aboard the Enterprise all that time before stating “I assume they returned to their Enterprise at the same time you appeared here”?

    Kirk used the computer as a means to figure out a way to return them to their universe, it stands to reason that Spock did the same on “our” Enterprise.
    I think there is a high probability that he calculated the amount of time it might take the others to rig the transporter, had the mirror characters brought, tranquilized or whatever in the transport chamber and waited for the transporter beam impulse from the mirror universe that would tell him that our characters were arriving so he could send the mirror characters to the location the transporter beam was coming from.

    I think the fact, that Spock and Lt. Kyle were in the transporter room the minute that Kirk and company arrived back from the mirror universe tells us exactly that.

    Obviously Spock was expecting their return on the transport chamber’s platform, otherwise there would have been no reason for him being there.

    Bob
     
  2. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I never did get the significance of the acid spot. Aside from the fact that we never saw the acid burn in our (well, their) universe, I'm not sure what that bit proved. Also, I'm no doctor, but what exactly was McCoy dong with acid in the first place? :wtf:

    When the crew beams back to their (well, our) universe, Spock says "Welcome home, Captain." That says to me that he expected them, which in turn suggests that he knew what was happening 'over there'. How, you ask? I say in the spirit of the story, Spock used some application of the tantalus device, which "here" was used for scientific or study purposes, whereas in the mirrorland, Kirk used it for acquiring power.
     
  3. Joska Daro

    Joska Daro Ensign Red Shirt

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    But first of all why would a Q feel like to protect the Halkans? And a Q will know USS Enterprise is no threat to the Halkans.
     
  4. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Both Melakon's and ZapBrannigan's theories have occurred to me before, and I think they are both reasonable. A mixture of the two might involve the Halkan higher power pulling it off.
     
  5. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    And we never learn the Halkans' final decision, though I assume they don't budge.
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Well, the Halkans do say, "We accept that your Federation is benevolent at present, but the future is always in question." (Emphasis mine)

    Maybe their experience with the multiverse has shown them bad things.

    Perhaps the trip to the Mirror Universe isn't only a test of character. Perhaps it is also a demonstration to Kirk and company of the reason why the Halkans are morally obligated not to budge.
     
  7. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    I assume it was mixing a PanGalactic Gargle Blaster.


    I think it was to further doubt for the characters and audience about it being a parallel universe or some other thing happened to the people on the Enterprise.

    Actually, I never thought about it, but the original version of City on the Edge of Forever's alternate Enterprise seems to resemble the Mirror Universe, somewhat. I wonder if there was some recycling going on?
     
  8. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's exactly the thing I didn't get, Marsden: if McCoy had pointed to the table and said "I spilled acid there a year ago." and the table was pristine, it would make more sense. As it is, the acid stain is there, which to me is contradictory to that point.

    It could also be that dummy me is missing the obvious again. :lol:
     
  9. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    The acid spill is mentioned to underscore the reality of the situation, to prove that it is a parallel universe and not a trick or deception by some party who's duplicated the Enterprise from plans of the ship. That detail was evidently known only by McCoy. And, it's obviously not the real ship, ergo they must really be in a parallel universe.
     
  10. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oooh, I get it now. :)

    In other words, that was an extremely polite way of saying that dummy me missed the obvious. :lol:
     
  11. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    I think they were physically transported into the other uniforms. Perhaps a human's bio-electric field interacts differently with the transporter than a non-living piece of cloth, explaining why they swapped physical locations with their counterparts but their respective uniforms remained in their original universes. Does that make any sense?

    As for why visitors from the Mirror Universe didn't show up naked in DS9, remember that the first crossover back in TOS was an accident, but the crossovers in DS9 were done using technology designed specifically for that purpose.
     
  12. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That could, though, suggest a lot. Perhaps as part of their peaceful society, their equivalents of congress or senate may meet outdoors. In their view maybe such events behind walls could be an invite to sneaky goings-on and the like, so they choose a way more inducive to "bringing things out in the open", literally, for all to see.
     
  13. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    I think CC explained that much much better than I did.
     
  14. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    First, I think Kirk's motivation in putting MirrorSpock in a position where he would quite probably have to kill MirrorKirk stemmed from love and hate: Kirk's love for Spock and his own deep-seated feelings of hatred toward himself.

    Love is blind: the first thing Kirk witnesses MSpock do is press an agonizer to MKyle's chest and torture him into unconsciousness for a minor error. MSpock, for all his unemotional mien, continually reveals himself to be right at home with the Empire's brutality and genocide--the only thing he does that indicates he goes beyond the system is warn Kirk of Starfleet's confidential orders to kill Kirk if he doesn't destroy the Halkans. MSpock also--logically but not compassionately--faciltates the return of our people to their Enterprise. From those acts, Kirk chooses to see the brother he has trusted with his life, ignoring the ruthless torturer and murderer MSpock clearly is.

    As for MirrorKirk, he represented those qualities Kirk hates most in himself--and Kirk could be a real bastard, particularly in the early episodes ("The Man Trap" comes to mind) and in TMP. And because MKirk is Kirk, Kirk may have unconsciously figured MKirk's life was his to dispose of, especially if it meant saving an entire planet-ful of people.

    Now, as far as DS9's forays into the Mirror Universe, the first such visit was the result of a runabout getting zapped in the wormhole. And contrary to something said up-thread, the passage from Prime Universe into the Mirror Universe did not always require displacement of the counterpart--Major Kira had to fend off the advances of the Intendent. And, because the mechanism was so very different, the direct passing of ships and people between universes via the wormhole or other dimensional portal rather than a transporter mishap, it doesn't rule out that, in TOS, Kirk and company experience a life-entity transfer a la "Turnabout Intruder." It doesn't have to be either/or.
     
  15. Joska Daro

    Joska Daro Ensign Red Shirt

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    Oh god that's exactly what I tried so hard to figure out yet failed. Thank you soooo much.
    "Mirror Kirk's life was his to dispose of. " Because Mirror Kirk is Kirk and MKirk's qualities repels Kirk and the universe is a mistake, he can trust MSpock because he can trust his logic(although MSpock's loyalty/friendship/love/whatsoever is toward MKirk). He can't trust his own counterpart because he know that guy is a thug. MKirk lived in the wrong environment and became the wrong person and he is a mistake and logically should be corrected.
    (And since he is Jim Kirk himself he may not even feel gulty for killing someone. That's the point. )
     
  16. TiberiusMaximus

    TiberiusMaximus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    That's a good point. I had forgotten the first DS9 mirror trip was via the wormhole. Silly me.
     
  17. cgervasi

    cgervasi Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I think you might be right. The existence of someone who looks just like him bothers him. It's like a caricature made to show Kirk just how bad his personal flaws are.

    He doesn't tell Spock explicitly to kill Kirk. He says be the captain of the Enterprise. He hopes, though, that Mirror Kirk will die.
     
  18. Joska Daro

    Joska Daro Ensign Red Shirt

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    And maybe he doesn't want to admit that he hopes Mirror Kirk will die.
    Anyway nobody is perfect.
     
  19. johnnybear

    johnnybear Captain Captain

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    McCoy only mentions the acid on the table because his sick bay is very different looking to his in the prime universe and the only similarity is the acid burn!
    If the mirror universe is only an hallucination then how come Kirk recognizes Lt.Marlena Moreau as a new officer on the bridge and one that he unusually fails to hit it off with?
    JB
     

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