So we're undoing Indistinguishable from magic?

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Tom Riker, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Location:
    Arizona, USA
    I haven't read IfM yet, but I was really happy when I heard about how much new development Geordi got, so I am rather disapointed to hear about it being undone. Geordi has had a real lack of decent development over the year, and I was really hoping IfM would start to reverse that trend. Very disappointed to hear that he appears to be going back instead of going forward.
     
  2. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Really? Always looked otherwise to me - the score/poll thread has lovely scores...
     
  3. USS Intrepid

    USS Intrepid Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 1999
    Location:
    Dundee, Scotland, UK
    I'm very disappointed to hear this. I loved IFM, and this makes me far less enthusiastic about reading the new trilogy.
     
  4. Dimesdan

    Dimesdan Living the Irish dream. Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Location:
    The Republic of Ireland
    indeed. I personally think it's one of the better novels to come out in recent years.
     
  5. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Don't be - It's Mack, who's *always* a good read. He certainly won't have deliberately set out to "undo" anything.

    No, this trilogy actually sounds pretty fucking great to me
     
  6. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    Sounds like he undid something pretty big in the first book to me.
     
  7. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Location:
    The Black Country, England
    Yeah, apologies - that's a sweeping generalization if ever I've written one. What I should have said is that SOME readers have some issues with parts of the book which weren't the responsibility of the author.

    Although I am one of them, editorial requirements notwithstanding, I enjoyed it.
     
  8. USS Intrepid

    USS Intrepid Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 1999
    Location:
    Dundee, Scotland, UK
    I guess so, still disappointing though.
     
  9. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Geordi's rank was already undone previously. Dunno about his girlfriend, but that's more likely to be referencing Vanguard collaborator Dayton than blanking mine, if you see what I mean. That stuff happens all the time, everywhere
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    I was talking about what happened with another character.
     
  11. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Which character?
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    The fact that Data might be back from the dead is what I'm talking about.
     
  13. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Oh, that, well that's nothing to do with IFM anyway - and as a reader I'm less bothered with that than with Janeway's return.

    After all, it was seeded in the movie, the other lines did it, and there's always new iterations/models/updates...
     
  14. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    I actually don't care if it was seeded in a bad Trek movie, I mean I wasn't happy with the last Trek movie that did this mostly because they were resetting other stuff while they were at it.
     
  15. matthunter

    matthunter Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Hell, if you thought the movie was THAT bad, Data's death in that film shouldn't matter this bloody much to you.

    If you ARE taking Nemesis onboard, then you can't get away from the fact that they practically bloody signposted "THIS IS HOW DATA COMES BACK!!!" in it. No half-measures.

    If I see a resurrection plot flagged up in big neon lights, my only concern is "are they going to use it to tell an interesting story?". Mack did. End of.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    This pretty much covers it. :techman:
     
  17. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Actually that's a misreading of the filmmakers' intent. If anything, the story makes it extremely clear that B-4 cannot become like Data -- the attempt to download Data's memories to enable him to grow and improve is a complete failure, and Data comes to the conclusion that B-4 is simply too limited and incapable of growth, which is why he ultimately shuts B-4 down. That's actually a crucial story point, because it thematically parallels Shinzon's inability to grow and change, which is the whole thing that makes Picard (and Data) better than Shinzon (and B-4). The whole thematic unity of the movie depends on B-4 being incapable of becoming Data. The bit at the end with B-4 remembering the song is just meant to give a slight note of hope at the end, a sense that maybe Data's legacy endures in some small way.

    Yes, the studio no doubt insisted that a "back door" for Data's return be included just in case the movie was so hugely successful that Brent Spiner could be talked out of his decision to retire from the role -- but that was just a contingency plan. Too many fans mistake such contingency plans for the explicit intention of the creators, but they're not. They're just a way that filmmakers hedge their bets against the unpredictable. In this case, the filmmakers' intent was clearly for Data to stay dead permanently; after all, the whole reason Spiner came up with the story is because he thought he was getting too old to play the role anymore, and he wanted to bring that part of his career to a decisive end. But the studio insisted they hedge their bets ever so slightly -- and ever since, people have been mistaking that hedge for their primary plan, which is missing the whole thematic point of B-4's presence in the story.

    (I should point out that the events of The Persistence of Memory do not, in fact, work against those themes, because Dave found a way to tell his story while being consistent with what the film established about B-4's limitations -- and defying most fans' assumptions about just what role B-4 could play in Data's return.)
     
  18. Sho

    Sho Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2006
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    By the way, when I read this I noticed that the thread wasn't included in my ranking because of a minor typo in the thread title ("Threaad" instead of "Thread"). Rosalind very kindly fixed this, and so it shows up there now.
     
  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    Having finished reading Persistence of Memory, I'm reminded of when I read the Destiny trilogy and expressed my mild annoyance that, when Geordi listed Borg they've attempted to re-humanize, he didn't mention Reanon Bonaventure from Peter David's Vendetta. David Mack replied saying it was simply because he hadn't read Vendetta, and if he had he probably would have mentioned her. Similarly, I suspect he'd have had Geordi make some mention of Leia if he'd read IFM.
    (and, FWIW, Reanon did get a mention in PAD's Before Dishonor, which I read a short while later)
     
  20. shanejayell

    shanejayell Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Location:
    BC, Canada