So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Photon, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I've always enjoyed that scene.
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Of course not, but what's that got to do with anything? Evolution didn't "intend" the development of opera when it gave us our voices, nor did it intend baseball to be invented when it gave us the ability to throw things. And fields of knowledge devised for one purpose are often adapted to novel and unexpected purposes; for instance, I'm certain a lot of the mathematics used in creating computer graphics was formulated by mathematicians who never imagined there could be such a thing as computer graphics. The reasons why a potential was first created have never been a limitation on the possible applications of that potential.
     
  3. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's debatable.

    Evolution did intend us to demonstrate ourselves as high value individuals in order to increase our mating potential and resource pool. Opera is a demonstration of skill and commitment, baseball is a demonstration of strength and physical domination.
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^First off, evolution didn't "intend" anything. That's why I put it in quotes. It's not a conscious force, it's a statistical process in which stochastically emerging traits that happen to increase reproductive success in a given environment are therefore reproduced more successfully.

    Second, the point is that wherever a potential comes from, it's possible to repurpose it in other ways. Louis Zimmerman gave his EMHs artificial intelligence capable of learning so that they could be better medical programs. He never intended them to be left active long enough to repurpose that learning capacity for non-medical purposes; indeed, we specifically saw in "The Swarm" and "Life Line" that he considered that a misuse of the technology, something that it wasn't designed to sustain and that threatened to destabilize it.
     
  5. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    When the doctor became sentient, he was an intellectual man, I find it rather unlikely he wouldn't keep up with the news from back home.
     
  6. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Janeway had apparently never heard of timed bombs when she destroyed the Caretaker array, stranding her crew in the Delta Quadrant.
     
  7. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    What news would that be? Intelligence reports on the latest war developments? The Doctor's non-medical interests leaned towards recreational activities like arts and sports, not military matters.
     
  8. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    I don't really think anyone on Voyager knew that much about the Dominion. When Chakotay broke the news to B'Elanna about the destruction of the Maquis, he simply referred to the Dominion as new allies of the Cardassians from the Gamma Quadrant, as if he never heard of them before.

    It's possible the destruction of the Odyssey was classified on a need-to-know basis, so the crew of a new ship going after the Maquis in the Badlands simply wouldn't have been privy to those events.
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wish folks would pay attention more, Timed Explosives wouldn't have worked. This was mentioned WITHIN the episode.
     
  10. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    No, the array's self-destruct system was damaged. Doesn't mean Janeway couldn't have ordered timed explosives to be made.
     
  11. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Given the timeline there is no reason to think knowledge about the Dominionwas widespread. Starfleet might still have been analysing the data and reports before issing a commuinqué about them. As Voyager's mission was to the Badlands there was no reason for her to be briefed on them. As for dominion weapons having an anti-coagulate. Had anyone been shot with that setting by the time VOY left? besides wouldn't an EMH be programmed to deal with wounds that hadn't coagulated?
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Curiously, when Jake Sisko becomes a FNS reporter, this seems to represent a major breakthrough for the organization - basically, this kid is their first opening into the secret world of DS9! It wouldn't be difficult to imagine that Starfleet would wish to keep the Dominion thing under wraps for a while, and DS9 would be the ideal location for that.

    So a Galaxy class starship goes missing? Well, it happened in the direction of Bajor, a distant backwater where news really don't travel all that fast... Perhaps she just got delayed, or found a Mysterionite homeworld or something, and will turn up later again?

    The interesting thing about the Dominion threat is that it actually got mellowed down soon after the Voyager left. Contrary to what Sisko was told, there was no major Dominion presence on the Gamma side of the wormhole; there were neither diplomatic nor military overtures to secure passage through the wormhole (apparently because the VR interrogation of Sisko and his crew had revealed the futility of such things); Dominion spies on the Alpha side were either not all that numerous, or weren't engaged in active sabotage after all; and it would not be long before Starfleet vessels gained the ability to defend themselves against phased polaron beams. But right after "Jem'Hadar" and "The Search", the Dominion would be Starfleet's greatest threat...

    ...And Janeway would just have been told that this threat would be stopped by collapsing the wormhole, by the very man who had already collapsed the wormhole once! So out of all the options available for a journey home, the ones involving the Bajoran wormhole were right out.

    Would the EMH be told this much? No particular reason why he should. After all, the ship was not headed towards a confrontation with the Dominion - this decision had been made early on, long before the EMH became a person.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    What news? Remember, they were completely out of touch with the Alpha Quadrant until "Message in a Bottle."

    Not to mention that the AQ was hardly his home; he had no memories prior to his activation in the Delta Quadrant. His home was Voyager.


    And given the Kazon a chance to disarm them before they blew? No. She felt responsible for putting the Ocampa in danger. She was going to make absolutely sure the Array didn't fall into Kazon hands, not settle for half measures.
     
  14. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It would've taken them hours to get the Array working right to send them home, during which time the Kazon would return with reinforcements and hit them with everything they had until they took both Voyager and the Array. It was a choice between "Fight and lose everything" or "Blow it up now and get out of here"; Going home with it wasn't really an option.

    Plus, being pulled there killed a lot of people and damaged the ship, so being sent back the same way would kill people too.

    The real problem was that the WRITERS forgot about this and acted like it was her fault later on.
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I don't agree. What writers have characters believe is not necessarily the same thing as what the writers believe. The writers had Janeway feel responsible for stranding her crew -- but that's just part of the same highly developed sense of responsibility that made her decide to destroy the Array in the first place. They weren't saying it was true, they were saying it was consistent with her personality to feel that way about it.
     
  16. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's far easier for the kazon to fight Voyager in a ship-to-ship battle - they had ships, not means to teleport into the array; heavy weapons, not knowledge on how to bypass starfleet protection measures; etc - than to disarm starfleet explosives (aka actually get into the array&disarm alien tech before the explosives detonated).
    If the Kazon were actually competent enough to disarm starfleet explosives in time, they could have prevented Voyager from destroying the array whatever the method attempted.
    Rationalisations such as the quoted one are transparently convoluted fannon.


    Anwar - your explanations can't even reach the above level - Tuvok even asked Janeway if he should activate the array; the array brought many ships to it before without causing destruction for the natives.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  17. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    The Kazon don't have transporters, but that doesn't mean they don't have a way to board the Array. And with Voyager's brief contact with the Kazon, how is Janeway supposed to know what the Kazon can or cannot do? They don't have easy access to water, but they have starships. That's a bizarre combination of technology that makes it difficult to predict else what they might be able to do or what other technology they may be weilding. Sure, we learned later that they're basically running their former master's ships, and probably doing only a passable job of maintaining them, but in the incident at the Array, how can Janeway legitimately risk leaving timed explosives behind when hostiles are right there, actively seeking to capture it, and possibly capable of thwarting her attempt to deny it to them?
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Edit, I don't see how your drivel warrants even the electrons it cruelly consumed. There's nothing to prevent the Kazon from boarding by completely conventional methods, and then e.g. throwing the explosives out of the nearest hole in the wall (or if none present themselves, arranging for one). These folks supposedly know how to fight, and lack of transporters is something they have learned to live with.

    Among Janeway's good reasons for not attempting a return using Caretaker's suspect machinery could very well be the complete lack of evidence on it ever returning anybody to Alpha Quadrant alive. Odds of it returning even half the crew on a good day don't seem promising from what Janeway can see, and this was not a good day. Doesn't mean Tuvok shouldn't suggest such a course of action, as it obviously is either Scylla or Charybdis.

    And that basically comes down to the definition of "them". The Kazon are enemies to the Kazon: going for water will mean giving up prime positions over the Ocampa treasure for the small group down on the planet.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    We could spend an age deabting on what Janeway could/couldn't have done in "Caretaker."

    For example leave timed explosives behind enclosed in a forcefield that was set to collpase a few microseconds before the explosives detoned and a few seconds after the return mechanism had been activated.

    But we'll just end up going round in circles, and end up right where we started,
     
  20. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    WHICH TAKES TIME - the kazon must send shuttles, seal an airlock on the array, blow up the array's hatch, etc. A lot more time than the exceptionally convenient transporter, which Janeway knows the kazon don't have.

    And there's still that explosive to deactivate.
    BTW - countermeasures against physically moving the explosives are a reality today; and they're supposed not to exist in 3 centuries? How incompetent do you want to make starfleet in order to cover up a plot-hole, Timo?

    But all that's not what you want to hear, yes?
    And you have no problem coming up with actual convoluted drivel in order to show that an obvious plot-hole is no such thing.

    Except that's not why Janeway made her decision - she mentioned her motive directly: she didn't use the array because she wanted to destroy it and protect the natives.
    Not because she thought it was more dangerous than being stranded in the delta quadrant or whatever.