So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by SicOne, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. yenny

    yenny Captain Captain

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    Y'all should know that there never was mention that the Constitution class were being decommission. They only mention that the Enterprise was being decommission.
    Y'all should also know that the USS. Olympia, cause they had use the wreckage of the Enterprise as a stand in for the Olympia, that she will most likely be a Constitution class starship.
     
  2. Saturn0660

    Saturn0660 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure about that. While yes they made field repairs it was in no way a true "repair". Somehow i get the feeling that big metal plates welded to the side of the hull are just that.. Field repairs.
     
  3. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Khan's flying straight. His first order was to fire aft torpedoes once the phasers zipped by them. Enterprise was chasing Reliant when they fired phasers and "veered away" from their chase (as per the definition) when it discontinued the chase and veered away to the right prior to Khan firing aft torpedo.

    It was a little later when Khan circled around and met the Enterprise head on that Kirk orders an evasive starboard to avoid a collision.

    Huh? According to the military, defensive operations include "destroying the enemy."
    Defensive Operations
    Though the outcome of decisive combat derives from offensive actions, leaders often find it is necessary, even advisable, to defend. The general task and purpose of all defensive operations is to defeat an enemy attack and gain the initiative for offensive operations. It is important to set conditions of the defense so friendly forces can destroy or fix the enemy while preparing to seize the initiative and return to the offense. The platoon may conduct the defense to gain time, retain key terrain, facilitate other operations, preoccupy the enemy in one area while friendly forces attack him in another, or erode enemy forces. A well coordinated defense can also set the conditions for follow-on forces and follow-on operations.
    Did he say "ALL" our battle damage repaired? No. And flying to Genesis was done on a jury-rigged automation that wasn't able to cope with any stress, like combat. The ship was far from being able to go back to active duty. If I were to guess, Scotty would be replacing hull plating and the blown out power systems that could NOT handle high power stress which appears to be the whole ship when it shorted out just trying to raise shields.

    That doesn't make sense. If she's a training ship, then there would have all the field gear the cadets would need to train on including science gear and lab equipment.

    Kirk had no intention of going to Genesis in the beginning. That's why they flew her back to Starbase. It wasn't until he needed to go get Spock's body that the trouble started trying to get approval to go back.

    Speaking of long term ships... I just noticed that the old classes, the Oberth, Constellation and Miranda seem to have the same shuttle door design aesthetics. Probably just a coincidence or maybe the same manufacturer got a perpetual building contract :D
     
  4. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Enterprise was chasing Reliant before and after the torpedo launch. Not that it makes much difference, since both ships actually missed each other until the Crazy Ivan maneuver.

    Aside from the fact that this applies to the very specific context of ground combat, there's also the previous chapter:
    The outcome of decisive combat derives from offensive operations. The platoon can best close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to destroy or capture him, repel his assault by fire, engage in close combat, or counterattack through offensive operations. While tactical considerations call for the platoon to execute defensive operations for a period of time, defeating the enemy requires a shift to offensive operations. This is also true in stability operations in which transitions to the offense can occur suddenly and unexpectedly.
    Got that? "Defensive operations" can be summarized as "things you do to keep the enemy from defeating you." Offensive operation can be summarized as "defeating the enemy." Counter attack is considered a type of offensive operation: the best defense is a strong offense, but the reverse is rarely true.

    And the jury-rigged automation failed at a critical, high-stress juncture. Had he returned to Genesis with a full crew aboard -- and not a jury-rigged automation system -- he wouldn't have had that problem.

    OTOH, he would have been poorly equipped for a planetary survey mission and his presence would be of fairly limited value... :shrug:

    Actually, the "whole ship" shorted out when Kruge hit them, unshielded and at point blank range, with a photon torpedo.

    And it wasn't the power system that failed, it was the aforementioned jury-rigging in the computer.

    Yes, versions which would be setup for training purposes to allow their instructors to evaluate their performance. Much like how an air force training squadron flying sorties over the Navada desert rarely carries any actual ammo with them, although they might sometimes carry dummy munitions or target designators that are programmed to simulate weapons release and calculate landing points.

    In this context, it's extremely fortunate the Enterprise even had live torpedo casings on board.

    The conversation with Morrow happens literally minutes after McCoy shows up in Spock's quarters babbling nonsense, which is BEFORE Sarek shows up telling him about Spock's missing katra. At this point, Kirk has literally no idea that anything odd has happened to Spock's soul and isn't interested in his body at all; "We'd hoped to take her back to Genesis" reflects his thoughts before the ship even docked.

    Could be as simple as that's the standard design for a shuttlebay door and the clamshel doors on the Constitution are actually something special.

    After all, the bay doors on the Oberth and the Constellation also look a lot like the doors on the Galaxy and the main bay of the Sovereign.
     
  5. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    Watch it again. Enterprise fires phasers and missed. Reliant fires aft torpedo and Enterprise is clearly turned away and not even directly behind the Reliant at that point. Enterprise lost sight of the Reliant because it veered away.

    It is important to set conditions of the defense so friendly forces can destroy or fix the enemy while preparing to seize the initiative and return to the offense.
    Got that? You can destroy the enemy while defending yourself. :rommie:

    If it was something that could be manually-corrected then Scotty and co would've ran down to engineering to fix it.
    Whatever Scotty did to setup the automation system would've been a problem for a full crew and it would've necessitated him to remove the system so a crew could take the ship out. Again, that would've required additional repair or refit to the ship on top of whatever battle damage that wasn't repaired earlier.

    Did Kirk say why they wanted to go back to Genesis prior to finding out about Spock's katra and body? We only know about "inquiries" from the Enterprise to Starfleet and Morrow saying that the Enterprise would "never stand the pounding" as if it was expected to be a combat mission and not a survey mission which was already being conducted by the Grissom.

    It shorted out prior to getting hit.
    CHEKOV: Sir, the shields non-responsive.
    KIRK: Scotty?
    SCOTT: The automation system's overloaded. I didn't expect to take us into combat, ya know!
    The torpedo hit made it permanent.
    SCOTT: They've knocked out the automation center. I've got no control over anything!
    Since the automation system overload occurred when they attempted to power the shields its connected to the power systems and it's inability to handle a combat load, IMO.

    Which again points to the ship carrying actual equipment, like science and exploration gear. It seems absurd to claim a training ship can blow up a city with a live torpedo but to be unable to make a scientific scan. :vulcan:

    I see. Kirk asked again about their request which would likely be their "inquiries" as mentioned earlier. Why go back still is unknown though. They already have a survey ship there. Was it to hang out with his newly re-connected son, David? And it must not have been initially urgent (before they found out about Spock's katra) since Kirk was willing to wait 2 weeks for the refit.
    KIRK: But we had requested... We'd hoped to take her back to Genesis.
    Which also appear to have very large interior volumes in the saucer. Perhaps unintentionally done by the production folks but it would point to an in-universe reasoning that the ships that stayed in (or will stay in) service the longest are the ones that have space to haul stuff, IMHO :)
     
  6. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I did. It's obvious they lost sight of Reliant... and that's about it, it seems. "Veered away" would be a course change or a turn and I don't think that actually happens (actually, it could be that Reliant was the one that veered away when the phaers grazed the port side).

    Incorrect. Look at the underlined portion there: "friendly forces" refers to somebody OTHER than yourself, someone who may be positioned to go on the offensive. More importantly, the previous chapter makes clear that a defensive action can very suddenly turn into an offensive if the opportunity presents itself and combat forces need to be prepared to go on the offensive in a snap.

    Combat units may change "stances" from offensive to defensive and back again many times on any given engagement. This is most explicitly born out in air-to-air combat; one announces he is "engaged defensive" when an enemy aircraft is in or close to a firing position or otherwise has the tactical advantage. He announces "engaged offensive" when he is coming into firing position himself or otherwise has the tactical advantage. Put it more simply: you're "engaged defensive" when the bad guy is on your six; you're "engaged offensive" when you're on HIS six.

    In an explicit case I am very familiar with (for deeply personal reasons) an A4 pilot over Vietnam is heard on the radio announcing "engaged defensive" when a Mig-17 comes out of a cloud behind him and opens fire; hilariously, five seconds later the same pilot shouts "engaged offensive" when the Mig overshoots, then another five seconds shouts "engaged defensive" when the Mig's wingman shows up behind him. All three aircraft wind up flying a toilet bowl for almost two minutes until at some point another A-4 pilot asks if he is engaged offensive or defensive and he shouts "Fuck, man, I dunno!"

    What makes you think the problem was in engineering? They knocked out the automation center; that would imply a problem with the main computer or some portion thereof. Assuming Scotty even knew exactly where the problem was, it probably wouldn't be fixable in any reasonable amount of time.

    They wouldn't NEED an automation system with a full crew; as Scotty says, "A chimpanzee and two trainees could handle her."

    Kirk says nothing about a combat mission; in the torpedo room:

    Kirk: But we had requested.... we'd hoped to take her back to Genesis.
    Morrow: That is out of the question.
    Kirk: May I ask why?
    Morrow: Because, in your absence, Genesis has become a source of galactic controversy.

    Again, the system never "shorted out." Scotty says it's "overloaded" which, for a computer system, means he has it trying to do too many things at once and the poor thing can't keep up. This after quickly putting the ship on red alert, quickly loading, arming and firing two photon torpedoes at an enemy ship that has just suddenly appeared out of nowhere. Predictably, the system crashed.

    I suppose Scotty must have rigged the automation system using Windows 8.:rofl:

    There's very little to suggest a training ship CAN blow up a city with a live torpedo, especially considering we've never seen torpedoes actually DO this (hell, two of them were barely sufficient to destroy the unshielded Reliant).

    It it had been URGENT, Kirk never would have gone home at all, he would have just stayed at Genesis and explored it himself.

    In the original script, it had everything to do with Spock and his Katra since McCoy started acting weird before they even left Genesis and they figured out what was happening on their own. In the filmed version, it probably has more to do with Kirk wanting to follow up on the Genesis situation, considering the enormity of what the planet represents to him personally.

    That works. The Constitution refit gutted most of the engineering hull to make room for a single large cargo bay, but the Constellation and Mirandas arguably have even larger cargo bays/hangars and more flexibility in how they're used.

    The Excelsiors don't, but then I don't think they were designed to replace the Constitutions in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  7. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    It's obvious that the Enterprise was already turned away (you can see her in profile) as the Reliant fires her aft torpedo. Since Khan didn't order an evasive before he fired aft torpedoes then it had to be Enterprise to make the turn away.

    Those "friendly forces" are the troops under the reader's (leader's) command. The paragraph is addressed to leaders.
    Though the outcome of decisive combat derives from offensive actions, leaders often find it is necessary, even advisable, to defend. The general task and purpose of all defensive operations is to defeat an enemy attack and gain the initiative for offensive operations. It is important to set conditions of the defense so friendly forces can destroy or fix the enemy while preparing to seize the initiative and return to the offense. ​
    It is interesting that you find that defending cannot include the destruction or killing of enemy personnel or vehicles.

    Ship A attacks Ship B with guns. Ship B defends itself by firing back at Ship A with guns and sinks it. Soldier A is defending an entrance and comes under fire from Soldier B. Soldier A defends by returning fire at Soldier B, killing him. Defending can include destroying or killing the enemy.

    Because Scotty tells Kirk that he's almost done automating the ship while in Engineering. Ship's computer systems were also in the engineering of Excelsior where Scotty pulled the chips so that would be a pretty likely location to address the problem. The photon torpedo hit was to the engine area of the saucer.

    If he had a full crew then the ship would've needed to uninstall the automation which would've meant additional time to repair the ship on top of whatever repairs that were not completed prior to reaching starbase. If he left with only the automation it was clear from Scotty's dialogue that it was not meant for combat or high stress which indicated it wasn't ready for active duty. In either case, not all the battle damage had been repaired prior to reaching starbase and she needed repairs before going back into active service.

    (This is in response to your statement as to what Scotty was planning to do with those two weeks: Crazie Eddie wrote, "Kirk mentions in his log entry "most of our battle damage repaired, we're almost home." More to the point, Enterprise WAS able to fly back to Genesis again without any repairs whatsoever, so what the hell was Scotty planning to do with those two weeks?")

    I said Morrow stated this.
    KIRK: As surely as if it were my very own!
    Give me back the Enterprise! With Scotty's help I could...
    MORROW: No, Jim! The Enterprise would never stand the pounding and you know it.
    Right after the torpedo hit on the impulse engine of the Enterprise.
    KIRK: What happened?
    Panels short out around Scotty/helm area and then he answers:
    SCOTT: They've knocked out the automation center. I've got no control over anything!
    The hit on the impulse engine area shorted out the automation that was already overloaded from the combat stress ("I didn't expect to take us into combat, ya know!").

    They were suppose to be low power as we saw the torpedoes set to low power prior to them firing on the Reliant. The only instance in the TOS movies where we saw a full powered photon torpedo fire was in TMP when it spectacularly destroyed an asteroid in the wormhole with them. Your argument is that a training ship would have dummy equipment yet the evidence shows that they had live torpedoes and phasers and no indication of deficient sensor capability or lack of science and exploration gear.

    Again, we don't know why he wanted to go back to Genesis in the beginning. Grissom was already surveying the planet. For all we know it could be to visit his son and spend quality time with him.

    Or he might have just wanted to hang around with his son and was instead ordered back to Starbase? :)
     
  8. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Khan might not have ordered it. The phaser shot did toss the ship a bit to the point that Khan has to cling to the helm console to stay on his feet. OTOH, the camera angle is different between the two shots; one shows both Reliant and Enterprise in front aspect, the other shows both in profile with Enterprise farther behind; could be Reliant was knocked into a sudden portside turn by the phaser blast.

    Incorrect. "Friendly forces" means simply "anyone fighting the same enemy you are." In this context, the paragraph is basically saying "Your defense shouldn't get in the way of other people's offense, nor should it prevent you from preparing for offensive action."

    A good example of this is the defense of a firebase against massed attack. Maybe you've got reinforcements in the area or air cavalry or something who can come and attack your opponent; you want to keep your enemy from advancing, so you need suppressing fire and lots of it, maybe some well-placed grenades or antitank rockets to break up their advance. What you DON'T want is for your troops to get into close quarters with the attackers, because when your reinforcements go on the offensive you'll be in their line of fire and they will have to be careful not to hit you. You also don't want to counter-attack too early and drive the attackers into a strong defensive position where they can potentially hold you off. You CERTAINLY don't want to arrange a defense that prevents your own troops from taking offensive action (say, surrounding yourself with landmines and then sitting in a bunker until reinforcements show up).

    That isn't the GOAL of a defensive action. A defensive action that destroys none of the enemy but prevents them from advancing is preferable to an action that destroys MOST of the enemy but still allows your position to be overrun.

    Swarm tactics have this feature: the enemy rushes headlong into your fire to overwhelm your defenses, knowing that you only have so much ammo and your troops can only kill them so fast. No matter how many of them you kill, they'll overrun you in short order; if you create additional obstacles in their path, by demolishing bridges or obstructing movement pathways they have to use to get to you (or at least restricting their movement so they can only come at you through a chokepoint) you can effectively defend your position even if you never kill ANY of the enemy.

    This is basically why torpedoes (also grenade launchers and antitank missiles) are not defensive weapons: they are designed to be pointed at a target and then activated, causing the destruction of said target. Either weapon CAN be used in a defensive action, but they are DESIGNED to destroy a specific type of target and are not actually optimized for that usage.

    So can Soccer. But that's not the GOAL of the exercise. Turning around and sinking your enemy means you're going on the offensive while potentially eschewing opportunities for defensive action. There's a clear difference between the two.

    In this example: Ship B has failed to defend itself if, in the act of sinking Ship A, it sustains irreparable damage to its engines and subsequently has to be abandoned and scuttled. OTOH, if Ship-B uses white phosphorous rounds to confound Ship-A's gunners and then falls back out of range, it has successfully defended itself even though it has not destroyed the enemy. The "fence" case you allude to occurs if, in the act of attempting to fall back out of range a white phosphorous round from Ship-B winds up setting Ship-A's magazine on fire and the attacking ship explodes; since Ship-B has survived it is still a successful defense.

    And if Ship-B turns around and blows Ship-A out of the water, Ship-A is said to have "counter-attacked" which is an offensive action.

    But he's NOT in engineering. He's in one of the ladder access ways that Kirk used to GET to engineering in the previous movie. We don't really know what he's doing there, but "fixing the computer" is far from certain even then.

    It's also uncertain whether "fully automated by the time we dock" refers to the automation system installed later, or to the docking system that Enterprise normally used that had been otherwise compromised by Reliant's attacks. Probably the latter, considering that in order to dock they had to place their computers under control of space dock's computers.

    Their "main transwarp computer drive," yes. Enterprise, which does not have transwarp drive, would have no reason to hook its automation system into its warp drive computers. More importantly, the warp drive wasn't the failure point for the automation system. The shield generators were, and even then it appears to be more of a software problem than a hardware one.

    Or hit the button on the automation center labeled "manual override.";)

    That's just it: she didn't GET repairs, but still went back into service. The weak link on the Enterprise at the time was Scotty's jury-rigged automation. With a full crew aboard (or at least somebody in deflector control who could override the automation center and raise the shields manually) they would have defeated Kruge easily.

    Considering how poorly Grissom handled the Klingon attack, it's unlikely Morrow was referring to a combat mission in the first place.

    OTOH, why would he expect there to be combat at Genesis? The entire project is highly classified; the only reason the Klingons know about Genesis is because their spies have intercepted the data, and the only Klingon who does anything about it is an unhinged warlord acting on his own initiative.

    You continue to use "shorted out" as if that's just a fancy way of saying "blown to smithereens by a photon torpedo." That's really weird.:vulcan:

    We see some sliders being pulled all the way down prior to their being ARMED. We don't know what the down position even means, or what the arming sequence actually is for those weapons, primarily because everything we think we know about how the arming console works goes right out the window the moment Chekov pulls a joystick out of the wall and says "torpedoes ready, Sir."

    Phasers is simple: it's easier to turn them off and not use them than it is to uninstall them altogether. The ship obviously doesn't have planetary survey exploration gear because they weren't setting out to survey a real planet; they have torpedoes aboard, but we don't know what type or how many.

    We also don't know the size of the asteroid in TMP, except that Ilia seemed to think the navigational deflectors would be able to push it away. For all we know, that entire asteroid would have fit inside their shuttlebay.

    That's an odd reason to spend two weeks refitting an entire starship, no?
     
  9. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    A change in camera angle doesn't change that the Reliant is moving forward and the Enterprise is moving away to the starboard. However, it's possible that the phasers zipping by could've caused the ship to alter the Reliant's course to port although it's a big difference of 30-40 degrees.

    The paragraph clearly states that the leader of the friendly forces is setting the conditions of the defense so his/her friendly forces can destroy or fix the enemy.
    Though the outcome of decisive combat derives from offensive actions, leaders often find it is necessary, even advisable, to defend. The general task and purpose of all defensive operations is to defeat an enemy attack and gain the initiative for offensive operations. It is important to set conditions of the defense so friendly forces can destroy or fix the enemy while preparing to seize the initiative and return to the offense.
    Suppressing fire from guns will send bullets that can kill. Grenades and antitank rockets can kill or destroy their targets.

    The GOAL of a defensive action is to destroy or fix an enemy attack and gain the initiative to be able to go on the offense. Preserving the health and well-being of enemy forces isn't a requirement. :)

    They are designed to destroy something that could be either attacking the weapons platform (defense) or to be attacked (offense).

    A counterattack is still a defensive action because you're defending against an attack with an attack.

    Then in this case it's a draw.

    That defense resulted in the destruction of the enemy ship. It's just as the same as if Ship A misses or lightly damages Ship B but Ship B sinks Ship A.

    This goes right back to being able to destroy the enemy while defending.

    Ship B is the defending force so a counterattack is still defending :)
    US Defense Department Military Dictionary: Counterattack:
    (DOD) Attack by part or all of a defending force against an enemy attacking force, for such specific purposes as regaining ground lost or cutting off or destroying enemy advance units, and with the general objective of denying to the enemy the attainment of the enemy's purpose in attacking. In sustained defensive operations, it is undertaken to restore the battle position and is directed at limited objectives.
    He's not in the intermix/warp core area but that doesn't mean he is not in engineering.

    Considering Scotty was pulled immediately off the Enterprise to go to the Excelsior after docking it is unlikely he had time to setup a separate automation system that was used in combat against the BOP.

    Scotty controlled the ship's warp drive with the automation system. Since he hooked practically every system up to it then it would've been through engineering where everything can be controlled. If it was merely a software issue then a reboot or manual override would have been an option. Since that wasn't the case, it's more a hardware issue than software issue.

    If they could have they surely would have. Since they didn't and wouldn't, well there was no manual override for the automation system ;)

    Getting stolen from space dock with incomplete repairs to battle damage does not qualify for going back into service, IMO.

    Hang on. That probably would've been something Scotty and Co would have considered. Instead they acted as if there was nothing that could be done. Running down to engineering or any specific system wasn't even a consideration at any point.

    Perhaps not for Grissom but for whatever reason, his dialogue pointed to the Enterprise getting in trouble.

    For something that is highly classified then it's pretty leaky as the alien in the bar that McCoy tried to enlist knew of the "forbidden Genesis planet" in the "Mutara sector". The Klingons and everyone else were probably interested just because the planet became forbidden and well, just magically popped out of no where. (But probably more because it's forbidden :D )

    What's really weird is that the shorting out happened 13 seconds after the torpedo hit. :rommie: The torpedo contributed to the automation shorting out permanently but it was already overloaded/broken when they tried to raise the shields. Funny enough, the automation center did bring the shields partially up before breaking, just no shields in the front. :lol:

    When Kirk gives the order to "stand by photon torpedoes" we see all the sliders with the labeling "TORP ENERGY LVL" being pulled down or already down to the bottom. The joystick is labeled as the "Firing Switch" which apparently is just the trigger. Chekov does push the joystick button to fire the torpedo.

    There is nothing obvious in the movie that the training vessel was not going to do any training exploration. What we do know is that they had actual torpedoes and if those were actual then all the other equipment aboard ship would have been the actual device as well.

    Or the asteroid was the size of a small moon as the navigational deflectors of the TOS Enterprise could nudge a rock the size of the Earth's moon. We do know that it is far enough away that the big glowy photon torpedo is no longer visible on it's way to hit the visible asteroid in the distance.

    If it takes two weeks to repair the rest of the battle damage, bondo the exposed hull plating and sand and get a new paint job then why not? Perhaps he wanted a redo on making a good impression with his son. :)

    Regardless of why he wanted to go back initially, they still had damage to repair, crew to refill and other refit-type operations before the ship could go back on active duty.
     
  10. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Is not a general, and isn't the supreme commander of a massive coalition of multiple units.

    More importantly, this is again in the context of military science and officer's training; that's how those terms are ACTUALLY USED. You want to split hairs in the text, go ahead and have fun with that, but that's now how those terms are used. "Friendlies" is used because the other forces you have to keep in mind may or may not actually be under your command and you have to act as part of a larger whole at all times.

    It's a question of maximum efficiency is all. Any action that most effectively defeats their attack meets the goals of defense. Given a choice between defeating your enemy and defeating his attack -- and this often IS a choice -- you make a tactical decision on which will allow you to complete your broader objective more effectively.

    Note that a lot of times commanders choose to go on the offensive even when they are in the process of getting their asses kicked. The most famous example is the Battle of Samar, where the destroyers of Taffy 3 -- who had no viable defensive options anyway -- pretty much did a Banzai charge on a squadron of Japanese battleships. They basically got themselves massacred, but in the process they managed to turn back the Japanese fleet and make room for the landing operation to succeed.

    Not according to the source you linked to.

    Again, if you want to split hairs and use terms incorrectly, that's your call. You tend to do that a lot just for argument's sake; whatever makes you happy. :shrug:

    Engineering -- also known as the "engine room" -- is a compartment that contains the intermix chamber and the main reactor below it, and also the power systems and machinery related to them.

    During the "eight weeks" conversation, Scotty is not in the engine room, but is in fact in a ladderway that grants access between decks. It's possible he's CLOSE to engineering, but that's definitely not where he is.

    Considering how flimsy that jury rigging turned out to be, how much time would he really need?

    You would think so, but you'd be wrong.
    The source of the problem on the Yorktown was that bad data was fed into an application running on one of the 16 computers on the LAN. The data contained a zero where it shouldn't have, and when the software attempted to divide by zero, a buffer overrun occurred -- crashing the entire network and causing the ship to lose control of its propulsion system.
    And Yorktown was disabled for a little over two hours before they were able to restore systems. Scotty may be a miracle worker, but I don't see him rebooting the entire automation system and rewriting the software in five seconds flat. Hell, I think that would be a tall order even for Data.

    If they could have run to deflector control and manually raised the shields, you mean? I DEFINITELY don't see Scotty pulling that off in five seconds.

    Again: at what point in the battle with Kruge did they have any opportunity to do that? By the time they realize the shields aren't going up, the very next thing that happens is the bridge exploding all around them. At that point, it's too late: you can't MANUALLY run ship as sophisticated as the Enterprise with just six people, and with the automation center taken out, they're as helpless as the Yorktown.

    Unless you think the automation center is physically connected to the helm console next to Scotty's wrist, I don't think this is the case. Kruge's torpedo did hit them a couple meters aft of the bridge, so it probably physically damaged the computer elements that were handling the automation altogether.

    Which you are guessing -- based on nothing at all -- relates to their explosive yield :shrug:

    Other than the fact that they had no pre-set destination in mind and Spock tells Sulu "indulge yourself." As far as we can tell, they hadn't even left the solar system yet when Carol called him to complain.

    No they couldn't. In fact, they nearly burned out their engines trying it. And this for an asteroid whose orbit they needed to slightly deflect away from an impact trajectory eight months in the future; try moving one of those things out of your path at FTL velocities.

    More importantly, Ilia mentions it as "unidentified small object has been pulled into the wormhole with us directly ahead." What is a "small object" in this context? Smaller than the Enterprise, larger than a shuttlecraft; definitely not "small moon."
     
  11. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    A leader could be as low as a squad leader and going up. It isn't exclusively a general or supreme commander.

    Show me where it says in the military that a defensive action would exclude destroying your enemy.

    That can include killing or destroying their units. :)

    So what do you think about the tail gunners on a WW2 bomber? They're firing guns to destroy enemy planes that are attacking them yet they are in a defensive role since they are unlikely to fly the bomber backwards to chase down an enemy plane.

    Yes it is since it is an action by a defending force. "Attack by part or all of a defending force against an enemy attacking force."

    And just when I thought we were having a cordial debate. :shrug:

    And you can also control the ship completely from Engineering as seen in "The Ultimate Computer" when they wired in an automation device that could not be manually overridden.

    Do you have a screenshot to connect that to a ladderway? It just looks like some part of engineering.

    Apparently more time than what was available during that standoff with the BOP and less time than 2.1 weeks :)

    You didn't cover manual override as I had written earlier. So again, if it was just a software problem Scotty could have gone for a manual override.

    They had plenty of time to face off against the BOP and listen to Kruge's threats and David's death. That's time for them to get something working on the ship if manual override was an option.

    Depends on what you're trying to do. Manually running the ship on an extended trip would be a problem with 6 people. But going downstairs to manually activate a device (see Generations) or transfer power to phasers doesn't appear to be an insurmountable task if manual override was an option.

    It hit to the port side of the deflection crystal housing which is more than a couple of meters aft of the bridge. In anycase, damage to the computer elements doesn't sound like a software issue.

    It's based on visual evidence with labels. It's a good thing they did lots of those visual inserts ;)

    So where is your evidence that their training flight would have excluded a training exploration at some point in their itinerary? Now you're guessing :D

    Nudge. Not enough to deflect it out of the way, just nudge. If they didn't have the power to even nudge it then the deflection would have produced zero effect.
    SPOCK: Degree of deflection, Mister Sulu.
    SULU: Not enough, Mister Spock. It's only point zero zero one three degrees.
    Pulverizing a "small" 200-300meter asteroid would require significant energy. Either kinetic or explosive. That same energy used on a city would be catastrophic.
     
  12. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    If you look back at navel history on Earth there was a time in the earlier part of the 20th century where nations agreed to limit themselves to a certain number of a certain type of ship "The Washington Naval Treaty"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Naval_Treaty

    So perhaps something like this might have been what was being discussed.
     
  13. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    For the fourth time, it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy. That is simply not the GOAL of defensive action, which is why a defensive action that manages to destroy the enemy can still fail as a defensive action. That is the whole point of the distinction, in fact: an offensive action is taken for the singular goal of eliminating the enemy forces from the battlefield, one way or another. Defensive action is something you to do prevent your OWN elimination.

    Of course it can. But that is not the GOAL.

    They're also unlikely to SHOOT DOWN the enemy plane. That isn't the point anyway: the gunners' job is to shoot at the enemy, forcing them to take evasive action and make it harder for them to attack the bombers. If you can kill them, great, but since you usually CAN'T, it's enough to keep them from really shooting at you.

    The same applies to escort planes, actually. The escorts are expected to pass up opportunities to kill enemy aircraft if it means staying with the bomber formation and defending it. If you shoot down every enemy plane in the sky but loose all of your bombers, your defensive action has failed.

    Now, a defensive WEAPON is one that is optimized for use in a defensive action. Tailguns on bombers is one example. Some close-in weapon systems on naval vessels also qualify. Defensive weapons can be used offensively under some circumstances, but that, again, is not the reason they were installed and not how they were INTENDED to be used.

    They wired an automation device that CHOSE NOT to be manually overridden. There was, if you remember, a manual override built into Kirk's chair specifically for that reason (and M5 went out of its way to bypass it).

    Ladderway.
    Scotty.

    Note the ladder located behind Scotty (the other engineer is holding a piece of equipment in front of it). Note the lights on the wall next to him. Most importantly, note the fact that Scotty's right shoulder is resting against the hatch on the bottom of the ladderway; this is the same hatch that Spock pulls open on his way to the engine room just before he sacrifices his life.

    Which would have gotten him what, exactly, since he still wouldn't be able to control those systems from the bridge without the automation center in place?

    It was too late by then. Without the automation center there's no way to actually run the Enterprise with just six people. Even if they could still get their systems working at that point (with an unshielded torpedo hit at that range, what condition is the ship even IN?) they wouldn't be able to control them effectively. Without automation it takes at least 60 people to run the ship; it simply wasn't an option.

    Again, after being hit by a photon torpedo that's a pretty delicate operation there may not be any time for.

    More importantly, even in generations this involved Kirk running down to deflector control and making modifications to the system so the fully-staffed bridge crew could activate the deflector and steer their totally undamaged ship out of danger. Imagine them trying to pull off that same trick with a thirty-foot hole in the computer core and only four functional people on the bridge.

    It never got anywhere near the deflector crystal housing. Slightly aft of the bridge, either directly aft or a little to starboard.

    You're asking me to prove a negative. Does a training cruise that may not even leave the solar system include exploration missions to actual planets? IF it does, then we might make the case for the presence of mission-ready scientific equipment that might have been useful on genesis. But there's no indication they were planning any of the kind, and the lack of such equipment works as an explanation for why they had to return to spacedock to be refitted for an exploration mission.

    Another thought: what would Enterprise have done against Chang if they WEREN'T carrying all that equipment for cataloging gaseous anomalies?

    Depends on the asteroid; a gravelpit with very little cohesion could be broken apart even if the torpedo had no warhead.

    Then again, I wouldn't call 200 to 300 meters "small."
     
  14. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    So you're saying that a "defensive action is something you do to prevent your OWN elimination" and you agree that "it doesn't EXCLUDE destroying the enemy." So why are you objecting to torpedoes used as defensive fire against an enemy ship as it doesn't contradict those parameters?

    Tailguns from a B17 used the same .50 cal machine guns that were mounted on fighter planes of that era. Both guns and their bullets can be used to shoot down aircraft. The only difference between the tailgun of a B17 and a fighter plane is that one is aimed in it's aft quarter which is just like stern torpedoes on a submarine or the Reliant used to hit targets in their aft quarter. :)

    Yes, and when it self-shutdown, they could run down to engineering to pull the connections and start restoring control of the ship. Scotty's automation didn't give them that option.

    Thanks. So how can you tell that the ladder/crawlway he is in TSFS is not connected to Engineering or not related to some part of the Jefferies Tubes? Was there a similar access panel in TSFS that is present in the TWOK version of that set?

    Go to engineering and manually transfer power to the shields and weapons. Have Sulu run to manually aim and fire phasers. Etc.

    The Constellation in "The Doomsday Machine" was wrecked with significant damage but about 4-5 people were able to manually control the ship. So yes, it was an option IF Scotty's automation system didn't prevent them from doing so.

    There was 5 minutes from the time Scotty announced the automation center was out to when Kirk surrendered. Another 2 minutes after that before the Klingons boarded.

    Yeah, it's from "The Doomsday Machine". 2 or 3 guys down in engineering and 1-2 guys manually flying the ship and firing phasers.

    If it was slightly aft of the bridge or a little to the starboard then why doesn't the shadow of the impulse housing reflect this? Instead the shadow is casting to the ship's starboard side which suggests the hit is to the port-side forward of the crystal housing.

    Given that there are several planets that the cadets can practice exploring in system, like Earth or experiments from orbit like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, etc the argument that the ship would not carry scientific or exploration equipment doesn't make sense.

    That would again suggest something that isn't supported in the movies. The only clear reason why they returned was that not all battle damage had been repaired and they needed refitting. (Well, that and a crew.)

    They would've called the Excelsior and have them fire the torpedo? :) But since they were carrying it and their mission was an escort mission then it stands to reason that the ship will normally carry scientific equipment. So the training ship would have carried scientific equipment along with her live torpedoes.

    Sure, even with no warhead there can be alot of kinetic energy if given enough of a run.
     
  15. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because the nature of torpedo attacks -- particularly in World War-II -- means this is necessarily a counter-attack, which is a type of offensive action. This is such, because firing a torpedo at the enemy immediately forces HIM to go on a defensive footing and take measures to avoid getting killed by your torpedo, either by firing deck guns in an attempt to detonate that torpedo or (if it's too deep or doesn't leave a trail) by taking evasive action to avoid it.

    Phasers have use as defensive weapons since they can be used to intercept enemy missiles and torpedoes and protect the ship itself. Photon torpedoes are primarily anti-ship weapons; you fire them, and the ENEMY has to go defensive if he wants to survive. If he doesn't want to survive, he might just ignore your torpedoes, take the hits on the chin, and immediately fire back without loosing the initiative.

    Pulling the plug on M5 wouldn't have given them control of the ship, it just guaranteed that M5 wouldn't "change its mind" and take control again. Kirk left himself open to attack on purpose, knowing that 1) he couldn't effectively fight back if he wanted to and 2) Commodore Wesley would probably spare the ship if he thought it was open to attack.

    It probably IS the Jefferies Tube, or something similar to it. Either way, it's not actually part of the engine room; in the director's cut of TWOK we see Kirk and Saavik and Spock using a similar ladderway to climb between decks after leaving the transporter room because turbolifts are inoperative below C-deck.

    ... would have been an option BEFORE the Klingons hit them with a photon torpedo. The first thing Kirk says after they get hit is "emergency power!" they're in almost the same shape they were in right after Khan's torpedo strike.

    With a sizeable damage control team in engineering, helping Scotty get the impulse engines and secondary systems online and run the power systems. Kirk had helm control and probably guidance control of the phasers (we know they can be automatically locked onto the "navigational beam") and it's also likely Scotty had at least one of his damage control teams down in the phaser control room (the guy responsible for having it recharged?). That, after about an hour of repairs, was enough for the ship to move (barely) and to fire a single blast from one phaser bank.

    Let's also Consider that if Constellation had been up against a Klingon warship -- even a damaged one like Kruge's bird of prey -- they would have blown him out of the water. As it stands, they only survived the wrath of the Doomsday machine because the machine was so easily distracted by the more maneuverable and more capable Enterprise; Constellation was perhaps two seconds away from getting vaporized when Decker distracted them.

    Kirk might have been able to stall Kruge for a couple of minutes until his staff could run to engineering and try to get the power systems online, but that would only count for one last, suicidal gesture after which the Klingons would have blown him to bits. His "You have two minutes to surrender" was his hold card, and Kruge called his bluff.

    Watch it in live action: the shadow is present both before and after the torpedo strike, and is therefore from an external light source (either Genesis itself or the central star in the system).

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The light from the TORPEDO actually spills over the starboard side of the saucer -- no shading from the bridge module -- and partially washes out that shadow with the "secondary" explosions.

    Missions to which would have been handled by Academy annexes at those locations, serving proving grounds that had been setup ahead of time so the cadets would have a safe place to train (as NASA basically does with its neutral buoyancy tanks and the terrain simulators from the old lunar missions).

    More importantly, Starfleet officers seem to spend most of their time exploring Earthlike planets in shirtsleeve environments. How many Earthlike planets exist in the Sol system?

    That would fit, IF Enterprise was being used as a training vessel in TUC. If it was being used as a technology testbed or something similar, then the analytic equipment would have been the prototype for the gear that was later fitted on the Excelsior.
     
  16. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Starfleet just had a thing for gaseous anomalies at the time. Excelsior's just got back from an expedition in the Beta Quadrant, maybe the Enterprise was doing a similar job in the Alpha Quadrant? I don't see why everything has to be testbeds and prototypes. It's probably standard equipment that ships on extended scientific missions might have been carrying. They just didn't bother to remove it all before the Gorkon mission, because there was no reason to.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    It's also a Meyer reference to the International Year of Geophysics which both superpowers used as an excuse for carrying out extensive military studies. Perhaps the Trek reality was similar, and Starfleet was keen to point out that they have a "scientific reason" to poke their noses at gaseous anomalies in the vicinity of Klingon military installations?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well exactly. Doesn't Sulu use that very excuse in 'Flashback'?
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Well, not the very one - he only refers to a "survey mission", and then to a navigation system malfunction.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's kinda my point: What, at this time in its career IS the Enterprise's job in the Alpha Quadrant? The last time we see Kirk and Spock doing their ACTUAL JOBS (and not responding to some kind of bizarre unexpected emergency), they're teaching students at Starfleet academy using the Enterprise as a training ship.

    Tempting as it is to think the Enterprise was an actual active-duty starship in TFF and TUC, the fact of the matter is both times we see the Enterprise-A it's being launched DIRECTLY from Spacedock, and even in TUC, we find Kirk unpacking a bag and moving back into his quarters on the ship. In TFF, as soon as their hostage mission is over, Kirk, Spock and McCoy go right the hell back into the woods and go camping again. Even as late as TUC, he doesn't LIVE on the Enterprise; for whatever reason he's spending most of his time in San Francisco and Enterprise is spending most of its time in Spacedock.

    These are reasons why I believe the Enterprise-A was never a front-line vessel and was simply a replacement for the original Enterprise, which had already been relegated to training duty. Kirk only got command of the refit Enterprise in the first place by leveraging his experience against the V'ger crisis, and once the crisis is over, he doesn't have an excuse except that Decker's missing and the ship needs a shakedown. After that... did Starfleet even let him KEEP it? Probably not, since a couple of years later McCoy is telling Kirk "Get back your command! Get it back before you really grow old!" He obviously didn't loose his command voluntarily, so Starfleet DIDN'T let him keep it.

    Interestingly, I've been told there are indications that in the 24th century Starfleet keeps a Constitution-class starship "USS Republic" in service as a training vessel; something about the Connies makes them great teaching tools for cadets, maybe?

    If not, then the marathon mechanical/computer failures in TFF become unbelievably hard to explain.:vulcan:

    The overall point is that IMO the movie era is being confused with the TOS era on the assumption that the basic mission of the Enterprise is unchanged between the two. This is far from the case; by TMP, Kirk is a flag officer going through what is essentially a complicated midlife crisis, trying to recapture his glory days at the expense of a younger officer who was supposed to replace him. By TWOK, he's already getting close to the end of his career. There isn't another five year mission in the cards for him; it's more like "five years until pension." IF the Enterprise had another five year mission after the refit -- and this is far from certain in the end -- Starfleet wouldn't have assigned its Chief of Operations to command it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013