So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by SicOne, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    Which again leads us full circle to "Why did he install it in the first place?" The theoretical answer is that the Enterprise cannot be operated purely from the bridge unless the rest of the ship is placed under automatic control. If the automation fails, the ship cannot be controlled.

    You cite "doomsday machine" that the ship CAN be controlled from a single point, which would render the automation center on the Enterprise entirely useless. There's a contradiction there that needs resolving. Either Constellation possesses a capability that Enterprise lacks (and therefore the latter cannot do the same without being configured for it ahead of time) or -- more likely -- the automation center is standard equipment and Decker activated it just prior to beaming down his crew.

    It is, actually, because the STARBOARD side of the saucer is lit up here while the PORT side is not; that side of the saucer is shaded from the light effects by the bridge dome and the upper levels of the saucer itself. This means the impact point is somewhere on the starboard side of the saucer.

    For the duration of the explosion and its after effects, yes. Then, as soon as the blast and the secondary effects dissipate, the shadow returns to its original darkness, cast by the impulse deck by the external light source to the ship.

    Which is exactly what we see.

    But you cannot see the impact point, which is obscured behind the bridge. If the torpedo was moving down boresight (the camera is in line with the torpedo's flight path) it would be still be impossible, since the torpedo would have to either physically pass through the bridge dome or otherwise "dip" below the visible structure of the dome/saucer to hit that point. Indeed, it could only hit the point you specified if it was traveling (in the camera frame) from roughly top left towards bottom right.

    From the camera's point of view, the impact point is slightly behind and to the left of the bridge module; IOW, outside of the red lines on the diagram below.

    [​IMG]

    Note that the path of the torpedo is from top right to bottom left. At that trajectory it could not have crossed over to the port side of the saucer section before hitting the ship.

    Actually, that's something they spend most of their time practicing in the simulator.

    Training ships are used to teach cadets how to live and work aboard an actual ship on a day-to-day basis; transporter operations and away mission scenarios are trained on a situational basis and such training is usually conducted in a simulator or (in the field) in the form of drills and exercises. "Learn how to use the fire control system" is simply not what training ships are used for; "Get used to using the fire control system on an actual ship where you don't have your academy bunk, the bar across the street, the library, your girlfriend or your momma's cooking to keep you comfortable" is.

    That raises the question of whether or not the Enterprise was actually under Kirk's command prior to the Praxis explosion. If he was, then "under your command" would seem a little redundant, wouldn't it?
     
  2. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Actually I cite "The Doomsday Machine" because they were able to manually control the ship at different locations. Scotty was able to get functionality for movement and phasers from engineering by swapping the controls and recharging a phaser bank. For TSFS, if manual control was possible they could have ran Scotty and Chekov down to engineering to transfer power to phasers and Sulu to the phaser control room to manually fire them. Scotty could also at that point put power to the shields.

    Not really. The expanding gas cloud that wraps around the back of the saucer isn't symmetrical to a center impact point (it goes all the way from 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock). If it hit more starboard of the saucer then the hit would be visible but it's clear that it doesn't hit to the starboard side and goes to the gas cloud not indicative of the impact point.

    We also exactly see the beginning of the explosion, frame 4, where the explosion lights up only the port side rim of the impulse deck not the forward or starboard part. That points to a port side hit.

    Okay, I'm curious. Which frame grab do you get the torpedo crossing from the red vertical line on the right? The 1st visible frame of the torpedo is alot close to the left side red line.

    Here is a more accurate version of the flight path and it shows that the torpedo path can clear the bridge section and goes to the forward port side of the impulse deck. The 5 frame flight shows the torpedo passing by the bridge module. Frame 5 shows the beginning of the explosion and it increases the brightness of the port side rim of the impulse engine but not the forward or starboard side. The 6th frame has the glowing gas that wraps around the saucer.

    [​IMG]


    That's an okay assumption. But it lacks the real-world experience of doing it from a real ship which is the logical next step after simulator training. You make the same argument:
    Crazie Eddie wrote, "The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions"
    Considering that beaming onto and off a ship is a routine operation then I'd argue that knowing how to operate a transporter would qualify as something to train for.

    Whether the Enterprise was under Kirk's command or not is irrelevant as it wouldn't indicate her status prior to the mission. What we do know is that the Enterprise was carrying gaseous anomaly scanning equipment like the Excelsior so she either got the equipment right before she mission or she was already carrying it. The main point is that if she was obsolete or unable to escort the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth they could've had Kirk command another ship.
     
  3. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    It would not. The aft-starboard portion of the saucer is still obscured behind the hump (containing decks 3 and 4 above the rim).

    I've already demonstrated it easily could given its trajectory. Even your "corrected" trajectory demonstrates this possibility.

    Incorrect. At no point in the entire process is ONLY the portside rim illuminated. The impulse deck ceases to be visible during the actual explosion; the first frame where we can see it again is this one:

    [​IMG]

    That's the forward starboard rim.

    That light, by the way, isn't coming from a "gas cloud" wrapping around the saucer, it's coming from the actual impact point; the secondary "sparkly" effects are absent in this frame.

    It doesn't. That's just an estimate of the torpedo's flight path: right to left, top to bottom. The "origin" of the weapon is a point behind above and to the right of the frame; spatially, this means the torpedo passed into the image above and to the right of the camera's POV (since the camera is closer to the Enterprise than the ship that fired it).

    Which still puts the impact point on the starboard-aft side: for all five frames the torpedo is visible, it is IN FRONT of the bridge dome in four of them and explodes on the 5th. We can tell from the glare on hull where the torpedo actually is; when it actually explodes, it is still on the starboard side of the dome.

    The military doesn't work that way. By the time cadets are in a position to "do it for real" in a live fire situation, they are no longer cadets. Active duty soldiers and officers in the field train continually whenever they're not engaged in combat, sometimes in proving grounds and designated training areas, but most of the time in shipboard drills and exercises.

    FYI, Starfleet doesn't work that way either. Wesley Crusher, for example, was trained to use the helm console on the Enterprise and various pieces of Starfleet equipment before he ever attended the academy. Even the highly unusual case of Red Squad on the USS Valiant -- a ship that arguably they would have crewed after graduation -- was assigned to "circumnavigate the Federation," not to chart unknown planets along the periphery.

    Not as routine as transporter maintenance and cleaning, filing daily reports to one's superior, system testing and diagnostics, calibrations, system updates and regular safety inspections. All of which are things a cadet doesn't have to deal with at the academy because he's AT THE ACADEMY and maintaining the transporter system on a day-to-day basis isn't his job.

    You don't go on a training mission to learn how to explore space. You go on a training mission to learn how to LIVE in space.

    It would, actually. Who, after all, was commanding the ship BEFORE Kirk took it out and where exactly is he during the mission?

    If it's Spock in command, then Enterprise is probably still performing the same mission as last time ("As a teacher, on a training cruise, am I content to command the Enterprise..."). If it's anyone else in command... where is he?

    Being obsolete and being unable to escort Kronos-1 are mutually exclusive concepts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  4. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
    I don't think we can trust the shading and shadows. After all, the torpedo hit brightens the starboard side of the starboard nacelle, which is just ludicrous.
     
  5. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    If it hit there, again, why is the 1st frame of the explosion NOT lighting up the front rim of impulse deck and only the port side?


    See that's the lighting on the rim we should have seen at the beginning of the explosion but it's not there. It only shows up after the explosion and it's sporadic along with the other secondary sparks.

    I figured you had made a guess at it. When the torpedo path is corrected for it won't hit the bridge area.

    So we have a conundrum. The 1st frame of the explosion lights up the port side impulse rim indicating a impact point on the port side forward of the impulse deck and also lighting the starboard aft side bridge module indicating a hit just aft and starboard of the bridge module. We can circle around this for a while but suspect we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

    Then Starfleet in TWOK-era doesn't operate the way you think it should? These cadets had a ship that had live weapons, working shields and transporters, etc.

    Wesley got practical experience that helped him test into the Academy and get Academy credit. How TNG handles actual cadets and a training ship could be different since it's decades after TWOK.

    Yet it's a modern ship used for training regardless of the training mission.

    And part of living in space is performing their job functions which some happen to be exploring planets.

    If Spock was in command and she was a training ship then the Enterprise still ended up carrying gaseous anomaly equipment like the Excelsior. (And live photon torpedoes.)

    If someone else was in command of the Enterprise and she performed a different mission, she still ended up carrying gaseous anomaly equipment like the Excelsior. (And live photon torpedoes.)

    Regardless of what she was prior to TUC, she ended up having gaseous anomaly equipment like the Excelsior. (And live photon torpedoes :) )

    Circle this back to TWOK, if in TUC she was a training ship and still carried exploration equipment like gaseous anomaly equipment like other modern ships as the Excelsior then the TWOK training ship would've been carrying applicable exploration equipment as well.

    Ah, so you consider "obsolete" as in out-dated technology but still able to operate as an active duty ship and perform her intended roles including escorting a Klingon Battlecruiser and protecting her against enemy ships wishing to disrupt the talks (and carry the non-obsolete gaseous anomaly equipment that Excelsior had)?
     
  6. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    It ISN'T lighting up the port side.

    At the point of the explosion -- the tiny "flashpoint" at impact -- it lights up the entire saucer, most prominently on the starboard side of the bridge dome.

    No it doesn't.

    None of which they had occasion to USE until a genuine emergency popped up. Unless you think "Find a wayward Klingon warship and shoot torpedoes at it" was part of their itinerary (and therefore the reason they had live torpedoes on board), you're not making much of a point.

    Yes, because "in space" and "on a planet" are totally the same thing.:cardie:

    Besides, you know as well as I do that 90% of all away missions involve the Captain, the First Officer, Chief Medical officer and one or more of the senior bridge crew. Of the other 400+ crewmen on the ship, only a handful of them ever get picked for an away mission, and no one EVER gets two. Considering how they PERFORM on those missions, I don't think we should assume an over-abundance of field training.

    Enterprise wasn't there for protection (and even then, utterly failed to do so). Its assignment was almost entirely symbolic in nature: Kirk has a reputation for being a badass, and the Enterprise has a reputation for being Kirk's ship. Reputation is everything to the Klingons; a rogue general would actually be more likely to attack the Excelsior than the Enterprise.
     
  7. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    It IS lighting up the port side rim but not the front or starboard rim.


    At Frame 5 when the explosion begins it lights up the port side rim of the impulse deck and the starboard aft of the bridge dome.

    Yes it does. :) We can go infinitely back and forth about this ;)

    You can fire live torpedoes at a target drone or random asteroid that is in your way. They have the live equipment when you believe they should not have therefore your point needs revising or it's just not correct.

    If living in space involves flying to another planet to explore then living in space includes knowing how to beam down and up and having exploration gear. :rommie:

    That doesn't help your argument. If 90% of time the bridge crew goes on a field mission then they will definitely need to have training on beam down and exploration while on a training ship. :techman:

    It was there to escort the ship back and protect the Klingons. Using your argument that they were there to symbolically ward of a rogue general from attacking would apply to the escort mission.

    Failure of mission doesn't change that it is an escort mission :)

    So the Enterprise is a badass obsolete ship that rogue Klingon generals are afraid to attack? I guess that could work since Klingons keep the same ship design around for 100 years.
     
  8. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    I'm looking right at the image you posted and at my own DVD player. The port rim is not brightened. There's the beginnings of a fireball partially obscuring it, but that's not at all the same thing.

    Which would still not teach you anything about how to use them in combat. The purpose of having live ordnance on a training vessel is to teach cadets how to HANDLE it, not how to fire it.

    It's the "fly to" part that they're training for, not ground operations. IRL, routine operations aboard a ship at sea is literally the ONLY thing that cannot be simulated realistically in a training program; accordingly, it is the only reason modern navies even have training ships.

    Except the only person on the ship who's being trained for permanent bridge duty is Saavik, who is technically ALREADY an officer in Starfleet anyway (and therefore goes on the NON-Training away mission to Regula-1). Meanwhile, Uhura's at communications, Spock's at the science console, McCoy's in sickbay and Sulu's at the helm. Which means the only people on the Enterprise who might go on an away mission aren't even trainees.

    Which has nothing much to do with the capabilities of the Enterprise. Starfleet was letting Kirk's reputation do the fighting for him; if the Klingons decided to actually take a shot at Gorkon there isn't (and in the end, wasn't) much that Enterprise could really do to stop them.

    You seem confused. You're asserting that the Enterprise couldn't have been obsolete because it was given escort mission. Since Enterprise wound up spectacularly FAILING that mission, that's hardly a valid argument.

    We don't know for sure if a newer/more advanced starship would have proven adequate for the job (could newer sensors/computers have penetrated Chang's new cloak??) but we know for sure that Enterprise was NOT, and Gorkon fell victim to EXACTLY the kind of back-stabby sabotage that Enterprise was supposed to deter.

    200 years, if you believe "Unexpected."

    But even that assumes that the Klingons were in any position to know that Enterprise was obsolete, even if it DID make a difference, which it probably wouldn't. Klingons tend not to be as technically minded as their human counterparts, and they're probably genre savvy enough to realize that Enterprise's plot armor is thicker than any other ship in the fleet.
     
  9. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    The port rim is brightened, especially the far port (left). The beginnings of the fireball has increased the rim lighting.

    For grins, I also added in the trajectory using the torpedo sparkle lines to find the center point for each frame. The torpedo on frame 5 at the start of the explosion is a bit high indicating that it may have detonated above the hull or got further back to the port side of the impulse deck than originally thought.

    [​IMG]

    If they aren't trained on how to fire it then they are taught an incomplete way of handling it. You even make the argument that IRL, they use recoverable munitions. In TWOK, they happen to have live torpedoes.

    Had it not occurred to you that routine operations aboard a starship in space would involve space operations such as making orbit, scanning the planet, selecting a beam down point and beaming down a survey party? And beaming them up if they come under duress? :)

    Technically, once the ship went on active duty I doubt they were still training. In anycase, one of the bridge cadets ended up going on an active duty away mission, so if they were still on a training cruise that would be one of their assignments since it's part of their job in space.

    Since the Excelsior wasn't able to detect the cloaked BOP I doubt any ship could have protected Gorkon's ship. And it didn't help that it was an inside job. But, their failure isn't evidence that the ship couldn't have protected Gorkon's ship from a conventional, non-inside job attack.

    Until you are able to show the Enterprise failing against a conventional attack that isn't aided by inside men then you'd have a point. (A fire-while-cloaked BOP prototype isn't conventional.) But right now your argument isn't valid at all.

    The Excelsior wasn't able to detect the cloaked BOP. How exactly would the crew of the Enterprise or Excelsior deter sabotage from within its ranks?

    Plot armor trumps arguments of being obsolete :)
     
  10. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    I just realized what you call "brightening" is, in fact, the fireball itself. This is incorrect: the "far port" of the impulse deck is not even visible behind the fireball and certainly isn't "brightened" by it.

    You're also failing to account for the fact that the that same flash illuminates the starboard side of the bridge dome in the same frame, and the fact that the starboard side of the impulse deck is illuminated by the glow from the impact point.

    In order for that "a bit high" position to illuminate the bridge dome the way that it does, it would have to be just aft the "17" on the "NCC0-1701" behind the observation lounge.

    Which is, I'm sure you've noticed, directly along your projected flight path.:vulcan:

    That striking position would put it close enough to the putative position of the computer core for blast/radiation effects to disable the core altogether. Physical damage to the computer gives you a loss of vessel function and additional damage from the torpedo impact starves the ship of main power. A strike in the impulse deck wouldn't actually have that effect, primarily because the impulse engines are NOT in engineering, nor are the computer systems that control the engines anywhere near that part of the ship. In that scenario, the automation system would likely be the ONLY thing on the ship still functioning.

    They ARE trained on how to fire it. That's what simulators are for (and also battle drills in the field). Training vessels are not for teaching cadets how to use the ship's weapons, they're for teaching them how to MAINTAIN them on a day to day basis.

    Another real world parallel: aviators on training carriers do not conduct scramble drills, mock airstrikes or air-to-air engagement practices. They use those carriers mainly to practice LANDING.

    And 90% of the crew isn't involved in ANY of those operations. Moreover, even the 30 to 40 people on board who ARE involved spend the majority of their time performing other shipboard duties between planets; your starship will be in space for weeks, sometimes months at a time before it ever gets near another planet. At those times, running the ship remains a full-time job, and there's ALOT that midshipmen and mechanics have to keep track of every minute of every day, shift after shift, and even BETWEEN shifts.

    THAT is what training ships are for: not to teach trainees the exciting parts of their job, but the boring/repetitive/tedious jobs that make the exciting part possible in the first place. It's not until the advent of holodecks a century later that Starfleet officers can spend the bulk of their free time dicking around on the holodeck.

    They were still TRAINEES to be sure. Their status doesn't change just because their ship got commandeered by an Admiral to take care of what was expected to be a minor emergency.

    That would be Lieutenant Saavik, the ship's only command school candidate, who is already an officer in Starfleet.

    That's just it: if the Klingons were going to take out Gorkon it would be, by definition, an inside job. Enterprise was there as a deterrent to keep the Klingons from trying something. That deterrent failed.

    Obviously Starfleet didn't expect General Chang or somebody to send a whole squadron of warships after Gorkon (as Duras did when he went after Gowron) because a single starship wouldn't be able to handle that situation anyway. But the presence of Enterprise would have discouraged any would-be rivals from trying anything in the first place.

    Nothing needs to be shown. Enterprise was inadequate for the task it was assigned. The reasons for it are many and nuanced, but it remains the fact that her being assigned to escort duty is NOT evidence that it was still front line material.

    An obsolete starship equipped with plot armor remains obsolete, even if it IS totally bad ass. Indeed, the only thing more powerful than plot armor is technobabble.
     
  11. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
    One more thought on the OP... I believe that 1) the shortage of models and 2) the popularity of TWOK and by extension Reliant led to the proliferation of the design for the wow factor.
     
  12. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Upon further look, that initial explosion glow is just simple glare. The problem with the torpedo exploding directly between the impulse deck and the bridge module is the lack of light hitting the front of the impulse deck. However, the light spillage we see is consistent with glare.

    Based on the trajectory, the torpedo would've detonated to the port side of the impulse deck.

    [​IMG]

    Unless they're Starfleet Training vessels in TWOK's time where they are trained to fire live torpedoes at target drones. You thought they shouldn't carry live torpedoes in the first place but since they do then why couldn't they practice firing live ammo?

    Not everything must exactly parallel real world.

    In TOS, it only took days (not weeks) to go from planet to planet. There's plenty of opportunity to go planetside.

    I think you're shooting too low. Of course they have to learn the boring stuff, but they have a fully operational ship like the Enterprise so it would be unusual for cadets not to practice all their jobs while in space. And to the holodeck point, the lack of holodecks would push to more real training instead of simulations.

    Ah now they're trainees being trained on an active duty ship.

    She maybe an officer but how do we know she's not still a cadet?

    Deterrent would just be a part of the escort mission. Since there was no conventional attack made, being a deterrent worked and it required a group of insiders sabotaging the mission and framing the Enterprise as the attacker.
    SPOCK: We have volunteered to rendezvous with the Klingon vessel that is bringing Chancellor Gorkon to Earth, and to escort him safely through Federation space.
    Maybe, maybe not. We don't know how the Enterprise would fair against 2 or 3 Klingon warships in a straight up fight at that time.

    Because you can't prove that the Enterprise would fail against a conventional attack. I don't even think you can show the Enterprise is even obsolete.

    If you mean by internal sabotaging, then yes.

    That's doesn't make sense. Why would the Federation assign a non-front-line ship to escort Gorkon then? It's not like Cartright was making the decision as he's called out by the CinC as being against it. They had plenty of time to assign a different ship, one that could be more "front-line" than what you think the Enterprise is.

    And more powerful than technobabble is the hero captain :)
     
  13. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    There's CONSIDERABLE lighting of the front/starboard ring of the impulse deck in the frames immediately after the explosion and immediately before the "secondary sparks" begin to manifest themselves. And even then, some of the lighting effect remains visible on the starboard side of the bridge.

    You mean the target drones you just totally made up off from your own imagination, purely for the sake of argument?

    Not usually, no. Especially when you consider the Enterprise' missions didn't always involve beaming down to a planet.

    They ARE practicing their jobs while in space. For 90% of the crew, their jobs are tedious and boring manual labor over extended periods of time while the senior officers and a random selection of specialists do all the exciting work planetside (or sitting at your duty stations minding your own business until a malevolent demigod decides to turn you inside out for no reason).

    Are you being sloppy with your terms again or are you under the impression that "training ship" and "active duty" are mutually exclusive?

    Because she's a commissioned officer with a standing rank within Starfleet's normal chain of command. If Kirk granted field commissions to every noncom on the ship, Saavik would still outrank them.

    More importantly, she goes from the Enterprise training mission straight to science officer on the Grissom without returning to the Academy. The other trainees are all noncoms and enlisted men (they were never at the Academy in the first place) but in Saavik's case, it would seem really odd. Why does she get to skip graduation and go straight to a prestigious new assignment?

    The answer is painted on Saavik's collar: Starts out red, switches to white, and she doesn't even get promoted in the meantime. This means Saavik has qualified for transfer to the Command Division through her performance on the Enterprise, which is pretty much the same transition Deanna Troi went through on the Enterprise-D.

    The thing is, Enterprise wouldn't be all that effective in preventing a conventional attack. Certainly less so than a more advanced starship.

    That's because Enterprise has never BEEN in a straight up fight with 2 to 3 Klingon warships, either before or after the refit. It's successors certainly did, though, and in almost every case where this happened, they wound up getting pwned.

    They decommissioned it literally days after its last (and arguably most successful) combat mission, at which point it is quite possibly the very last Constitution class ship still in service. If it's not obsolete, it's pretty damn close.

    Why would the Chancelor of the high council fly to Earth on a 100-year-old battle cruiser?

    You're forgetting that Spock personally laid the groundwork for the diplomatic efforts himself and "personally vouched" for Kirk in his behalf. Again, that's the factor of Kirk's reputation: Gorkon knows Kirk is both hated and respected among Klingons as a formidable foe, and he knows that if he gets anyone else to escort him to Earth it'll look like a sign of weakness among his rivals. Instead of appearing to run to the Federation to beg them for help in the face of disaster, he instead meets the Federation's most famous warrior on his most famous ship and they travel to Earth to talk about what to do next.

    And there's our answer.

    The reason there are so few Constitution class starships in the 24th century is because they are designed to be badass-hero: their primary power source is a badass Captain capable of imbuing it with his personal gravitas.

    Mirandas were designed from the beginning to be badass-normal: they perform just the same no matter who's at the helm. With more powerful badass-hero ships like Excelsior coming out, the Constitutions were not suited to carry on in a rear-line role and the Mirandas and Constellations filled her mid-range exploration field.
     
  14. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    That lighting is not visible at the beginning of the explosion. The evidence of it visible after the explosion tells us that they belong to secondary sparks. There is no way that the initial explosion could be between the impulse deck and bridge module.

    Oh, you mean these imaginative items: Crazie Eddie wrote, "Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes"

    So a training ship like the Enterprise wouldn't be carrying training equipment from our imaginations but live, working gear. I'm good with that.

    Sure, but they can visit one after a few days.

    Then by practicing all their jobs in space, the ones that need to beam down to survey or get scanning equipment ready to explore some random planet from orbit would get to do that. What's the problem with that?

    In TWOK, apparently they are. Spock did say that the ship was not on "active duty." I do agree that trainees can still get training on an active duty ship fitted with live gear.

    That doesn't answer whether she was still a cadet or not.

    Kirk as a cadet went to Axanar on a peace mission. It doesn't sound unusual for cadets to go out on field missions.


    She's red throughout the entire TWOK movie so she's still a cadet then. She only gets a white shirt when she's in TSFS and it could very well be possible that she graduated. Perhaps all she needed was a beam down mission to check off the last of her graduation requirements :rommie:

    What proof do you have that she wouldn't be effective against a conventional attack and that she is less advanced?

    Her successors are not the same Enterprise we're talking about. As you've pointed out she's never been in a straight up fight with 2 to 3 Klingon warships so you don't know. (She has been against 4 sister ships under M5 in "The Ultimate Computer", fired on by 10 Romulan ships in "The Deadly Years" and exposed to fire from 8 Klingon warships in "Errand of Mercy".

    Or she might've been scheduled to be replaced when they finished the Enterprise-B? There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology.

    Hey, if you're willing to ask that question then why would the Federation send an obsolete ship to escort him?

    He vouched for Kirk. If the ship wasn't up to par then they had plenty of time to put Kirk on a more capable ship.

    Or the Excelsiors just replaced the Constitutions in role? It's not like there was a Reliant-Excelsior that came along so the Reliants were kept around because no better replacement came along.
     
  15. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    The initial flash isn't nearly bright enough to expect that it would; it is not, in fact, that much brighter than the torpedo itself, which only illuminates part of the hull directly next to it (mainly because the Enterprise's hull isn't all that reflective in the first place). The ACTUAL EXPLOSION is bright enough that the glare masks the entire saucer section including the bridge.

    It remains far more relevant that the only thing that IS lit by the initial flash is the starboard side of the bridge module. That means that at the moment of detonation, the torpedo was still a considerable distance to starboard of the centerline. That being true, there is no longer much of anything to indicate an impact point on the port side.

    You mean I'm IMAGINING the U.S. Navy uses recoverable torpedoes?:vulcan:

    Because they've already been trained how to do that at the Academy. You go on training missions to practice the things you CAN'T learn at the Academy, namely operating a starship on a day-to-day basis. The flight's only supposed to three weeks long; there's a lot for them to learn already without trying to squeeze an away mission into the schedule.

    More importantly: the enlisted crewmen will never go on an away mission -- EVER -- unless they become officers. They practice some maneuvers with shuttlecraft, and they're certain to practice EVAs a couple dozen times. But away missions are the exclusive territory of senior officers for whom far more intensive training has already been completed before they ever stepped foot on the ship.

    This is a mission for Saavik to learn how to pilot a starship out of space dock; it's a mission for the new helmsmen and security officers to conduct shipboard intruder drills, fire drills, damage control drills, interception drills, decompression drills, medical emergencies, etc. It's a mission for the engineering team on the bridge to get used to having to coordinate with the chief engineer below decks, keep track of his duty rotations, get used to starship cooking, keeping his quarters in order, then going back on duty hours later and keeping track of what the last watchstander left for him to do.

    Again, I'm projecting real-world realities onto Starfleet, but it would remain the case that the away missions and ground surveys are a miniscule part of normal starship operations. It takes four hundred people to run a ship the size of the Enterprise; it only takes six to visit a planet.

    Spock said nothing of the kind. He says "If we were to go on active duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command."

    He is referring to the trainees, who are not technically active members of Starfleet yet. Sulu, McCoy, Uhura, Kirk and Spock ARE on active duty and arguably so is Saavik. The Enterprise, also, is a starship deployed on active duty despite the fact that most of its CREW are not.

    Removing a ship from active duty is called "decommissioning" or at the very least placing that vessel in reserve. It wouldn't even leave Earth orbit in that case, let alone carry live gear.

    It does, actually. A Lieutenant in Starfleet is not a cadet (technically, neither is an ensign).

    Assuming red actually MEANS "cadet."

    Because
    1) We have seen the Enterprise come under conventional attack four different times in the movie era. All four times, she took heavy damage and on one of those occasions was thoroughly disabled.
    2) NO ship named Enterprise has EVER withstood a conventional attack from more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time. They can apparently survive on even terms, but two-or more means a loosing battle; the ship either runs for its life ("The Deadly Years") or it succumbs ("Yesterday's Enterprise", "Rascals").

    The only thing Enterprise really has going for it is Kirk's reputation and the fact that Gorkon requested him by name. Chang could have just as easily sent three Birds of Prey after Kronos-1 and killed everyone on both ships. But Chang didn't want a dead Chancellor, a wanted a war with the Federation.

    True. They are CONSIDERABLY more advanced and more powerful. And they still loose at those odds.

    "All the other ships?" What other ships in the fleet other than Enterprise received that kind of upgrade? We've only ever SEEN two constitution class vessels in all of the movie era and both of them are named "Enterprise."

    Old ship gets an old escort. What can I say? Symbolism is almost as important as reputation when it comes to Klingons.

    The ship WASN'T up to par and they sent it anyway. Symoblic gesture is symbolic.

    No, I'm pretty sure the Constellations did that. The Excelsiors filled a totally new role that the Constitutions were probably never suited for in the first place.

    Put that another way: Mirandas are suitable for six-month to one-year mission in local space. Constitutions (and later, Constellations) can handle a five year mission out on the frontier. Excelsiors and Ambassadors can manage upwards of ten years, while the Galaxy class can cruise around for a generation.

    The Constitution design was probably first constructed when that mid-tier "five year mission" was the farthest that any starship would ever get from Earth; fifty years later, they're probing far deeper than before, and the mid-tier starships of the previous generation are mismatched for the environment in which they now operate; they're going to be doing a lot less exploring and a lot more law enforcement, security patrol, search and rescue, engineering support and humanitarian relief. The "Five Year Mission" zone is no longer the frontier, but has instead become the suburbs. Constitution, with its high-powered deflector dish and scientific survey equipment, is a rugged "all-terrain vehicle" in an environment that really needs high-speed patrol cars and vans with lots of trunk space.
     
  16. TheRoyalFamily

    TheRoyalFamily Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    That's what I see the Centaur-class as - basically the Excelsior generation version of the Miranda; just, for whatever reason, the Mirandas weren't (evidently) completely replaced like the Connie.

    And as far as the Constellation-class goes, that seems more like a fast transport/assault craft (for SCIENCE! :rommie:) of some sort than a Hero Ship Cruiser.
     
  17. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    ...and we didn't exactly see a ton of Centaurs did we? ;)

    I think it was Timo who first suggested the the Constellation was essentially TOS-era tech taken to the limit of its application; you want a ship with greater abilities than what you have but are confined by the limitations of the technology itself, so you make a numerical increase. It makes sense to me.

    What exactly defines a "hero" ship anyway? Picard flew Stargazer.
     
  18. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Location:
    I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
    ^ And Geordi seemed to think there was something pretty damn special about the USS Victory too.
     
  19. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    The initial explosion put a green glare to the right almost to the "U" of USS. If the explosion point was at the back of the bridge at "1701" as you've described then the light would have easily lit up the front of the impulse deck.

    Instead it does not and therefor it cannot be where you think it exploded and it is further away from the camera putting the explosion on the port side of the impulse deck. What you're seeing is simply glare.


    I mean you're IMAGINING the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. I thought I could imagine with you on the target drones, but I'm back to, nah, they'll just fire at random asteroids.

    Based on that, you also CAN'T learn at the Academy how to explore a planet from a starship.

    That's not a good excuse when the ship can visit planets every few days. 3 Weeks is good for at least 3 planets.

    Is a "Yeoman" an enlisted crewman? If so, we do see Yeomans go on away missions. We might even see enlisted crewman go on away missions to perform damage control on another ship.

    And for Saavik to go on an away mission :)

    We do know 172 were at duty stations and 248 were off duty and 11 in sickbay in TMP. If we were to assume that half were on watch at that time because of the V'ger situation then the ship really only needs 344. The other 86 are non-essential to the ship and probably available to be sent to the planet. And even if they were essential to the ship - they could still get sent down. In "Arena" Kirk dropped off 30 medical personnel onto the planet before taking off in pursuit of the Gorn ship.

    You're right but for the wrong quote. He said, "actual duty".
    SPOCK: As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command.
    It could very well be that the ship was still on "active duty" but not "actually" doing anything active.

    Since we don't know how high a rank a cadet can hold in Starfleet, we don't know, actually.

    We have a reason to assume red means cadet. She's wearing it at the beginning of the movie where "cadets" were being rated in the bridge simulator. Since Saavik felt the test was unfair to her then it's a good bet that she's a cadet.

    Let's see in the movie era for Kirk's Enterprise:
    1. TMP - V'ger was all powerful. Doubtful that this was conventional. Minor damage.
    2. TWOK - Reliant surprise attack crippled her before she could raise shields. Doubtful that this was conventional as it came from a supposedly friendly ship. Crippled.
    3. TSFS - Not fully repaired from her TWOK battle, her automation systems fail as she tried to raise shields. Not sure how this could be conventional since she wasn't battle ready in the first place. Self-destructed.
    4. TVH - No Enterprise.
    5. TFF - She was caught with her shields down while her attention was focused on the planet below. Not her finest hour. Minor damage.
    6. TUC - Suffered damage from multiple torpedo hits from fire-while-cloaked BOP prototype. Didn't do too bad and still got the enemy ship. Minor to moderate damage.

    You're forgetting:
    1. "Errand of Mercy" - multiple Klingon ships attacked Enterprise while she was orbiting Organia. She safely withdrew back to the fleet.
    2. "The Deadly Years" - 10 Romulan ships were attacking her while flying through the RNZ. Stocker didn't put up a fight but her shields were holding for the duration of the attack. She escaped after Kirk tricked them into backing off.

    That's definitely more than one Klingon (or Romulan) ship at a time.

    Given the situation in "The Deadly Years", it had to leave. They were already in the wrong for entering the RNZ. Stocker didn't put up a fight to reduce the number of enemy ships. There only option was to find a way to retreat.

    Those are two different Enterprises against a different era of enemy ships. How those fair isn't the same comparison to the Enterprise under Kirk.

    Gorkon requested him by name? I thought Spock volunteered them?

    In TSFS, according to Kruge the Enterprise out-gunned him 10-1. In "Elaan of Troyius", 6 torpedoes was enough to send a Klingon Battlecruiser home running. I'd argue that the Enterprise during Kirk's time enjoyed a huge advantage over the Klingons. 3 standard BOPs wouldn't have had much chance.

    I'm dubious of more powerful. In anycase, they're not Kirk's Enterprise.

    I wrote, "There really isn't anything specific about the ship that tells us that it couldn't be upgraded like all the other ships to keep up with technology. "

    "All the other ships" is in reference to just that, all the other ships that have been upgraded to keep up with the technology like the gazillions of Reliants and Excelsiors in DS9's time. I was not referring to TMP's "redesign and refit".

    LOL. Klingon stories go better when they can say, "and yes, the Federation feared Gorkon so much that they sent the might Excelsior under Kirk's command to meet with him." OTOH, the Enterprise could've still been close to the Excelsior in firepower, so still good for Klingon musicals.

    Again, what proof do you have that the ship wasn't up to par?

    Perhaps. It could go either way.
     
  20. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Oh yeah, the Centaur. It was using something like an Excelsior-style saucer but the rollbar of the Reliant for nacelle pylons and hybrid Reliant-Excelsior super-slim nacelles. Perhaps it was too custom to be mass-produced? Or maybe it's lack of dual shuttle bays in the back limited it's usefulness?

    Which is interesting since Picard complained that it was underpowered. "Peak Performance" showed the ship to have only one bulky warp core. Still, she seemed pretty roomy with thick primary hull.

    Well, at the time if the Battle at Maxia, Picard wasn't a "hero character" so the Stargazer was fodder. Now put Picard on a shuttlecraft and see how much longer it'll survive against a Jem'hedar attack than say Captain No-name :)