So Kirk makes the same mistake TWICE in accepting promotion?

[enterprisecvn65]

So in TMP we find out Kirk has been promoted to Admiral and has spent the past few years as head of starfleet operations or something like that. We also find out that he's less than thrilled with being a flag officer in a administrative job and he'd rather be captain of a ship actually out there in the thick of the action.

Then V'ger appears and he gets to use as a reason to assume command of the Enterprise in what seems to be a one shot deal, until Decker suddenly decides he wants to be blown into atoms with robot Ilea. Which opens the door for Kirk to stay as the Enterprise's captain, which seems to make him very happy.

So however many years pass between TMP and TWOK and we find out at the beginning of TWOK that Kirk, after commanding the Enterprise for a few years has AGAIN accepted promotion to flag rank and has some kind of administrative position, which isn't specificed in the film, that keeps him desk bound and again SURPRISE!!!!! he's extremely unhappy with what he's doing and wants to be commanding a ship and be in the thick of the action.

I don 't know the non canon info about when Kirk first relinquished command of the Enterprise and became a flag officer, or how long he was in command after TMP before he relinquished it again, or what his specific job was as Admiral prior to TWOK.

But what I want to know is WHY? would he give up command a second time at all.

The first time before TMP I'm fine with. Maybe he was burned out, maybe he wanted to spend more time around earth, maybe the natural instinct to further your career took hold and he decided it was time to step up the ladder, all plausible theories and it turns out he made a mistake and it wasn't all he thought it would be and he longed to command a ship again.

But why in the world would he accept promotion to flag rank and an administrative position for a SECOND time between TMP and TWOK......He'd already been down that road once and realized he didn't care for it, did he think it would be better the second time around and this time he wouldn't miss having a ship?

In the real military you generally don't get to "decide" to accept promotion or not. When your 2-3 year hitch of commanding an aircraft carrier is up and the Navy promotes you, you don't get to say "No thanks, my passion is command of a ship so I'll pass on the promotion". The Navy is going to remove you from command anyway, probably not promote you and kick you to some marginal position because they've decided you're obviously not ready and/or willing for bigger positions and your career is basically over.

But both McCoy and Spock indicated in TWOK that Kirk DID have some say over being promoted and both said he made a mistake in taking it when apparently he could have stayed in command of the Enterprise........Well Duh? He'd done it once and didn't like it, what changed that he thought doing it again would be better this time?

It seems like starfleet doesn't have a problem with officers turning down promotions because they like where they're at, like Riker did many times and it didn't end his career. So it doesn't seem like Kirk was FORCED into giving up the Enterprise a second time, it seems he decided to repeat the same mistake that had made him unhappy only a few years before.

Talk about not learning from your mistakes. Good thing Khan conveniently escaped, allowing Kirk to assume emergency command, and then Spock died so Kirk didn't have to give it up and then he got "punished" for his actions in TSFS by apparently being given ship command for life. Talk about lucky breaks or he might have accepted a desk job for the 3rd time when the Enterprise returned from Khan and Spock was still alive to captain her.

 

[MacLeod]

He might not have had a choice in the matter, HQ might have given him a simple choice he could either be promoted or retired.

 

[gottacook]

Captain, sir: I'm afraid you've been misled by Paramount's very late decision to attach "II" to the title of TWOK. There was no II in the pre-release ads, on the cover of the novelization, or on the original theatrical release prints.

TWOK is not a sequel to TMP. It's a reboot. Why else would Kirk be at a desk job at the start of each one?

This means that the ship as seen in TWOK is not a refit, but simply a better rendering of what we all saw on TV. In turn, the dialogue in TSFS "Jim, the Enterprise is twenty years old" (referring to plans to decommission the Khan-damaged ship) now makes sense, whereas it contrasts wildly with Decker's "Admiral, this is an almost totally new Enterprise" if the latter is to be taken into account.

If the ship is indeed 20 years old (despite resembling the refit ship seen in TMP), then it makes sense that it's now used as a training ship with a small trainee crew. Suddenly it makes sense that the huge and varied TMP crew is nowhere to be found. An almost totally new Enterprise wouldn't be used as a training ship, especially if it has features that are so new that other ships wouldn't even have them yet (channeling phasers through the warp engines, etc., as mentioned in the wormhole scene).

So relax. There is no continuity between TMP and TWOK, no matter what you may hear elsewhere.

 

[xvicente]

Well, there's the fact that ST:TMP and STII are very different movies, II's script was very much based in Kirk aging while TMP's was a recycled tv series pilot.

(Also II cared little for continuity after itself -- if Meyer have had it his way ST would have been David and Saavik's show from then on).

After IV stomped the reset button so hard there was not much else to do with Kirk (and Riker and Picard for that matter).

In-universe, there's McCoy' line: "The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe."

and TNG dialed that up to 11

 

[enterprisecvn65]

He might not have had a choice in the matter, HQ might have given him a simple choice he could either be promoted or retired.

Yeah but McCoy tells kirk get back his command before it's too late. Spock later tells kirk it was a mistake for him to accept promotion and commanding a starship is his best destiny.

Both would strongly indicate kirk did have a choice and it wasn't a mandate.

Plus Riker turned down promotion something like 43 times. So apparently Starfleet is fine with officers refusing promotions.

 

[BillJ]

He might not have had a choice in the matter, HQ might have given him a simple choice he could either be promoted or retired.

Yeah but McCoy tells kirk get back his command before it's too late. Spock later tells kirk it was a mistake for him to accept promotion and commanding a starship is his best destiny.

Both would strongly indicate kirk did have a choice and it wasn't a mandate.

Plus Riker turned down promotion something like 43 times. So apparently Starfleet is fine with officers refusing promotions.

I'd say there is no real proof Kirk's command of the Enterprise lasted any longer than the shakedown cruise after TMP. He took a temporary reduction in rank but no evidence exists that it lasted.

Out of universe, both TMP and TWOK were soft reboots. With a larger budget, I imagine the Enterprise would've looked different in TWOK.

 

[MacLeod]

Or that as it was only a temporary grade reduction, at some point Command decided to rescind the order which granted the temporary reduction in rank. So he only actually accepted promotion once after TOS.

 

[UssGlenn]

I don 't know the non canon info about when Kirk first relinquished command of the Enterprise and became a flag officer, or how long he was in command after TMP before he relinquished it again, or what his specific job was as Admiral prior to TWOK.

In Star Trek Generations we learn that after some unspecified amount of time commanding the Enterprise after TMP, Kirk retired and met Antonia. Promotion upon retirement is not Uncommon today. So Kirk is definitely an Admiral again before TWOK. Then he tells Antonia he's going back to Starfleet, I'm sure they promised him action and adventure that didn't live up to the hype, so he's unhappy again by TWOK.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

He might not have had a choice in the matter, HQ might have given him a simple choice he could either be promoted or retired.

Yeah but McCoy tells kirk get back his command before it's too late. Spock later tells kirk it was a mistake for him to accept promotion and commanding a starship is his best destiny.

Both would strongly indicate kirk did have a choice and it wasn't a mandate.

Plus Riker turned down promotion something like 43 times. So apparently Starfleet is fine with officers refusing promotions.

I'd say there is no real proof Kirk's command of the Enterprise lasted any longer than the shakedown cruise after TMP. He took a temporary reduction in rank but no evidence exists that it lasted.

Out of universe, both TMP and TWOK were soft reboots. With a larger budget, I imagine the Enterprise would've looked different in TWOK.

I think it's unlikely paramount was intending to drop TMP as canon and start over with TWOK. I don't think they thought the film itself was an embarrassment so much as they had had enough of Roddenberry's big ass budget ideas of what a ST film should be. Clearly they felt there was enough good stuff in TMP to give it another go and, despite the changes in people making the film and all the on screen differences like the unis it wasn't filmed like TMP had ever happened.

As for kirk being captain after V'ger that's highly speculative. The end of TMP sure gave the feeling like the gang was back and Kirk was at the wheel. Why else bump off decker if they were just going to take kirk out of the captains chair after the crisis was over.

Imho it seems to me Kirk did retain command of the enterprise for some time before going back to flag rank posts.

It also seems from McCoy's and Spock's comments that they felt Kirk didn't have to give up being captain but rather he made the decision, again, to take promotion when he didn't like it the first time.

Just my take.

 

[Cyke101]

Yeah but McCoy tells kirk get back his command before it's too late. Spock later tells kirk it was a mistake for him to accept promotion and commanding a starship is his best destiny.

Both would strongly indicate kirk did have a choice and it wasn't a mandate.

Plus Riker turned down promotion something like 43 times. So apparently Starfleet is fine with officers refusing promotions.

I'd say there is no real proof Kirk's command of the Enterprise lasted any longer than the shakedown cruise after TMP. He took a temporary reduction in rank but no evidence exists that it lasted.

Out of universe, both TMP and TWOK were soft reboots. With a larger budget, I imagine the Enterprise would've looked different in TWOK.

I think it's unlikely paramount was intending to drop TMP as canon and start over with TWOK. I don't think they thought the film itself was an embarrassment so much as they had had enough of Roddenberry's big ass budget ideas of what a ST film should be. Clearly they felt there was enough good stuff in TMP to give it another go and, despite the changes in people making the film and all the on screen differences like the unis it wasn't filmed like TMP had ever happened.

When they were going for the soft reboot for TWOK, it wasn't with the intention of totally wiping out TMP from the canon at all (otherwise it would be a hard, full-on reboot), simply that they felt there needed to be more changes that would bring more movement and action to the screen. The uniforms themselves are one big sign, since they're heavily inspired by military and much more dynamic than the pajamas we got in TMP.

Besides, it'd be odd to try to wipe out a movie from the audience's memory, only to reuse some of its footage. And for all the flack that TMP gets, it was still pretty profitable; it sold the most tickets until ST09, and it's still the highest-grossing Trek movie when adjusted for inflation (even beating out the Abrams movies, which were indeed considered very successful); it was just that critical and fan reaction was lackluster, but they still made enough to justify a sequel, in any case.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I don 't know the non canon info about when Kirk first relinquished command of the Enterprise and became a flag officer, or how long he was in command after TMP before he relinquished it again, or what his specific job was as Admiral prior to TWOK.

In Star Trek Generations we learn that after some unspecified amount of time commanding the Enterprise after TMP, Kirk retired and met Antonia. Promotion upon retirement is not Uncommon today. So Kirk is definitely an Admiral again before TWOK. Then he tells Antonia he's going back to Starfleet, I'm sure they promised him action and adventure that didn't live up to the hype, so he's unhappy again by TWOK.

Actually the act of promoting a military figure upon retirement has been forbidden since the 1950's.

These were often referred to as "tombstone" promotions where, for example you'd be promoted to colonel from major the day before you retired. It had no impact on retirement benefits but it allowed you to call yourself John smith colonel us army retired instead of major. You could also have the higher rank put on your tombstone. Or at a ceremony where retired personnel could wear their uniforms they'd have a colonel rank.

It was abolished because it was used too much as a political favor. Like one officer would promise a retiring officer this promotion on your last day in return for something.

To civilians it may seem like no big deal but in the military to say you were an Admrial instead of a captain is a major point of pride.

It Also was abolished because many people found it very dishonorable to call yourself a rank you held for a day for the rest of your life.

 

[USS Triumphant]

It had no impact on retirement benefits

Um... until 1980, retirement pay was calculated on base pay at retirement. Which would have been higher for the next grade up, no?

 

[Ithekro]

The thing is, Kirk was already an Admiral by that point. Temporary grade reductions seem like just a way to make it easier to not call Decker "Capain" following Kirk's installation as commanding officer. One does not generally get reduced in rank unless you got court marshalled for something, and then you would probably be kicked out, even if you didn't get a dishonorable discharge.

So Admiral Kirk accepted promotion following his Five Year Mission at a relatively young age (30s). If he help the temporary rank of "Captain" as CO of Enterprise following V'Ger, Starfleet is only going to allow him to retain that position until they can find a new CO, then put him back to his normal job (which still needs doing). One assumes that was Spock, who would eventually be promoted to the rank of Captain. Enterprise would then be made into a training ship for some period of time, though we don't know if this was its permanent assignment or if this was just to train a new crew before going back on exploration duty. Kirk's mistake would be accepting promotion right after the Five Year Mission.

(The idea of TMP being entirely wiped out does not function. While it is in theory possible that TWOK Enterprise is a the same Enterprise as seen in TOS, just with a better budget (no refit), the 20 years old line from Marrow still does not work. If Kirk ran into Khan 15 years ago, and Pike went to Talos IV 13 years before that (both first season episodes), than Enterprise is nearly 30 years old at the youngest.

 

[Cyclonus]

One important thing to take into account is the amount of time between TMP and TWOK. According to the Star Trek Chronology, twelve years separate these two films - fourteen, if you go by the first edition. Certainly, the fact that Chekov has been promoted and moved on, and that the Enterprise is no longer a top-of-the line ship, indicate the passage of time.

As for Kirk's status, strictly speaking there's no canonical evidence to indicate that he embarked on a second five-year mission, though the end of TMP does leave us with that impression. He could have been on some extended mission or other, one where it makes at least some sense to have an admiral in command of the Enterprise, but this is all speculation. I do agree that it would make no sense to demote him, only to eventually promote and then demote him again. But just what happened in the intervening years is fuzzy at best.

 

[Cyclonus]

(Sorry, double post)

 

[Ithekro]

It is possible that Kirk left Starfleet the first time because they forced him back behind the desk. His rank would still be Admiral because he had earned the rank. This removal from the bridge of Enterprise may have been right after her shakedown cruise, or it may have been after a five year mission. It all depends on who, how, and when they get a new CO for Enterprise after Decker goes MIA. If Starfleet doesn't have a list of prospective Commanders and Captains lined up for the job of command of a starship, or one that may be a prestige command given the refit to Enterprise or just her envolvement with saving Earth in the V'Ger Incident, and warrent a more experianced officer. Or require Kirk's recommendation. or at the time could rate a flag officer. In the real world, the rank of commadore had been removed and replaced with rear admiral. If Kirk is rear admiral rather than a vice or full admiral, that he is basically the same rank as Commadore Decker or Commadore Wesley (and technically Fleet Captain Pike) less than a decade earlier. Assuming Kirk was the lowest possible rank of Admiral at that time.

After returning from retirement he may have been promoted again to another setup up the chain of admirals. Though we are not sure what his job is in TWOK. He is an admiral. We see him doing inspections for a class of cadets that are to serve on USS Enterprise. By TSFS, we don't know what he is suppose to be doing, as all we know is her reports to a higher ranked Admiral and is looking to see about getting another ship if he can't get Enterprise. He's focused on going back to Genesis, so we are not given much into Kirk's job or other motivations. That he is shown as the presenter of the Genesis Project in this film suggets that either he used this as a report to Starfleet or the Federation Council on the way home from Genesis, or he was the Starfleet connection for Carol Marcus in getting the Genesis Project rolling. He seemed to know what it was and had clearence. Spock and McCoy did not know what it was in TWOK.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It had no impact on retirement benefits

Um... until 1980, retirement pay was calculated on base pay at retirement. Which would have been higher for the next grade up, no?

Yeah but since it was gone before the 80's that was never an issue.

And IIRC military pensions aren't always strictly calculated on what your salary was on the day you retire, otherwise you'd have people retiring maybe within days after making their desired retirement rank.

So if you're promoted to captain from commander in the navy you immediately start to draw captain's pay, but I believe you have to remain at that rank for a decent amount time in order to receive a captain's full pension.

I believe if you retire before that date you receive a pension pro rated to the amount of time you served before the full rank penson. So you'd be making more than what a commander was making at full pension, but not the maximum amount a captain who had reached the full pension point is.

Like otherwise you'd be having military personnel hit flag rank and retire shortly afterwards, when that's the last thing the military wants.

So even if tombstone promotions were still used it wouldn't matter because their last active paycheck would show them getting paid 13 days at the lower rank and 1 day at the higher rank. One day at the higher rank would have no impact on pension.

 

[Trimm]

The real crux of this is the amount of time that passes between TOS and TMP versus the time that passes between TMP and TWOK. Even if you don't subscribe to the official chronology, the gap between TOS and TMP is roughly 3 years at the least, but the gap between TMP and TWOK has to be at least a decade given the on screen context.

Why is that important here? The gap between TOS and TMP is just long enough for Kirk to have been promoted right out of the returning Enterprise to the admiralty, and find that being behind a desk isn't to his liking. But the gap between TMP and TWOK is long enough for Kirk to have done and experienced many things in life including promotion.

Also, looking at the context of the films, those time gaps point to something I've always believed, and that is that Kirk's desire to regain command in TMP and TWOK are driven by two totally different reasons. TMP Admiral Kirk wants to regain command because he is still young and restless, and being behind a desk doesn't compare to being in the center seat. TWOK Admiral Kirk is driven more by the anxiety of age, the feeling of your purpose and meaning in life having passed you by.

All of this is a long way of saying that Kirk hasn't made the exact same mistake twice. His choices, and his feelings about those choices, are driven by very different factors in each case.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

The real crux of this is the amount of time that passes between TOS and TMP versus the time that passes between TMP and TWOK. Even if you don't subscribe to the official chronology, the gap between TOS and TMP is roughly 3 years at the least, but the gap between TMP and TWOK has to be at least a decade given the on screen context.

Why is that important here? The gap between TOS and TMP is just long enough for Kirk to have been promoted right out of the returning Enterprise to the admiralty, and find that being behind a desk isn't to his liking. But the gap between TMP and TWOK is long enough for Kirk to have done and experienced many things in life including promotion.

Also, looking at the context of the films, those time gaps point to something I've always believed, and that is that Kirk's desire to regain command in TMP and TWOK are driven by two totally different reasons. TMP Admiral Kirk wants to regain command because he is still young and restless, and being behind a desk doesn't compare to being in the center seat. TWOK Admiral Kirk is driven more by the anxiety of age, the feeling of your purpose and meaning in life having passed you by.

All of this is a long way of saying that Kirk hasn't made the exact same mistake twice. His choices, and his feelings about those choices, are driven by very different factors in each case.

You do bring up a great that the ST time vs real time muddies it up quite a bit.

It's hard for me to adapt to the idea that only 3-4 years have passed in ST time between TOS and TMP when it was a decade in reality and then have it turned around and told maybe up to a decade has passed between TMP and TWOK in ST time when it was 3 years in reality.

I know films can't always be consistent with real time. But those are two REALLY big jumps to accept, especially when they are polar opposites.

 

[gottacook]

None of this changes the fact that Paramount didn't add the II to TWOK until the last minute (or after the last minute, in the case of the theatrical release prints).

This whole discussion really ought to take into account the time displacement that is supposed to happen in FTL voyages. One year's subjective elapsed time for someone on the Enterprise may not be a year for a guest star, after all.

But I still think the full-reboot hypothesis fits the greatest number of "facts" and is the most logical reason why Kirk would be at a desk job at the outset of both movies. Neglecting the previous paragraph and assuming some sort of constant year, I do agree that the Enterprise had to be older than 20 years to account for the Talos mission, but that's a perhaps forgivable error; that number was probably chosen because the first time the Enterprise appeared on film was 1964 and the movie was to come out in 1984 (just as 15 years had elapsed between the filming of "Space Seed" and that of TWOK, an interval replicated in the script).

Again, the Enterprise can't be both a long-in-service training ship AND a recently rebuilt super-deluxe flagship of the fleet with newly installed engineering features (such as mentioned in the post-wormhole scene). It makes no sense. Nonetheless, any continuity that includes both TMP and TWOK/TSFS is obliged to try to make it fit.