So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by Dale Sams, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Will needed whipped into shape. As XO, its his job to ensure that the Captain's orders are carried out--he can raise concerns and questions in private, but once the order is given he has to make sure its followed. Just because they have a clash of personalities is no excuse for acting like a spoilt child, especially with the very real prospect of war looming.

    Jellico merely showed another form of command that is a bit stricter and more formal than Picard's, nothing wrong with either of them. And if it wasn't for Jellico, we'd still be suffering Troi in those awful jumpsuits.
     
  2. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You all are utterly ignoring "Now I know why he didn't get his own command" REALLY? Where was the Cairo... Jellico during the Battle of Wolf 359?

    And Troi: "I fear there's been some miscommunication" The empath doesn't know what the **** is going on cause Captain Smugpants is playing mindgames and keeping his crew in the dark.

    The crew *are* professionals (except for when Will let devotion to Picard cloud the issue.) "It is the duty of the XO to inform the Captain when he thinks he's making a mistake"

    All Jellico had to say was "Noted. Carry out my orders or I'll find someone who can" But he couldn't WAIT to get Data into the red shirt.

    Jellico is a horrible communicator...but he definitely carried the day as far as how things ended. And given that he isn't commander of The Cairo when it disapeered, he probably got a fat Sovereign ship when The War broke out.
     
  3. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Don't forget The Pegasus Incident. It's THAT IMO that really diminished the star of the Savior of Sector 001.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not. But something kept Riker from getting his own command after Wolf 359. After losing thirty-nine starships, Starfleet would've had little choice but to kick Riker to the captain's chair of a starship. They suffered major losses all through the Dominion War yet Riker was left in the XO spot.
     
  5. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yup. But we've been through this. The entire command staff should have been broken up like they were partially when Data had to take command of that one ship in that Sela episode.

    The only fanwank that works is that the Enterprise-E is a touring USO ship. And it certainly appears to be given the levity of Insurrection.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I always though that Riker was kept around post-Best of Both Worlds to keep an eye on Picard. But, in-universe, that only works for a fairly small period of time.
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not too small a period of time, as late as First Contact there's indications that Starfleet Admiralty did not completely trust him. And Insurrection hinted that Picard was being kept out out of combat during the Dominion War.

    :)




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    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  8. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    BTW...I just rewatched Redemption Part II....Denise Crosby was brilliant in that. Her best work.
     
  9. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    You mean Unification? She isn't in Birthright...
     
  10. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Redemption...I was too slow with the edit.
     
  11. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    Gotcha.

    I remember the preview of the graphics on Worf's console from Redemption II that was shown as part of the 25th Anniversary Special. I wore out my VHS tape of that special :)
     
  12. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    By the time he relieved Riker, he was well within his right to be considering other options for the sake of the mission, & pushing him into that outburst was needed sooner rather than later. He needed all the crew to be performing exactly as expected, especially the XO. Every second of that conflict made the mission more difficult to execute.

    Every single thing that Jellico did was an absolute necessity of the mission, including telling Troi to get in uniform. How would it have looked to have someone not in uniform at these negotiations? So yeah, people had to do things they'd never been expected to do before, & put out more work than is healthy to do. If Picard had told everyone that they needed to work themselves to exhaustion for the next 2 or 3 days, they'd do it without question, but Picard had years to build a relationship that fosters that kind of trust. Jellico needed that level of performance & loyalty, but knew he had done nothing to earn it.

    By all accounts, the person with the hardest job of all is Jellico. He would have to have known that going in. I maintain that we never truly know what Jellico's traditional "Command Style" is. We may not even have gotten a true representation of what kind of person he is. He was playing the captain part he was required to play from the minute he beamed aboard. This captaincy, at this time, on this ship, for this mission, required him to do things that even he may never have had to do before, in a way that was absolutely necessary, & perhaps not entirely how he'd prefer to do it.

    Certainly, a man who keeps his kid's artwork in his office is not a completely unreasonable hardass. Much like Picard was given no choice, neither was Jellico. He knew he'd be taking over a ship that was not outfitted properly for the task, a crew that would have no faith in him whatsoever, and a timetable that was nearly impossible. He had to know resistance was coming. If he had time, maybe he could have cooperated with them to reduce it, but he did not.

    All he had at his disposal was that he's the man in charge. He was handed the uniform of an asshole & told to wear it, and get the job done posthaste, & he did. He told them it was an honor to have served with them, & it sounded like he meant it. I even felt a bit of regret in his voice, in that he never got to be the man he'd want to be with them. A sacrifice for the mission, that might follow him if he ever has to work with any of them again.

    He knows they were being asked the impossible. He was too, & all of them succeeded when the chips were down. Remember when he told Troi that he wanted Lamec to think he was an unreasonable man? He needed - e v e r y b o d y - to think he was an unreasonable man. It was the only way to get the job done, but realistically, no one could have gotten to his level of command in Starfleet without being reasonable.

    But we never get to see that side of him. I bet the people on the Cairo have a completely different impression of him.
     
  13. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Captain Jelico was just trying to get control of the Stargate.

    Err...

    Captain Jelico strikes me as a military thinker for an anti-military military. He came off as far worse in 1993 than he does now, and comes off as frankly tame compared to any recent scifi captain. Heck, NuKirk acted just like Jelico in ID.
     
  14. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    During Picard's reign, the Enterprise was mostly running peaceful exploratory missions. Now you're in a pre-war scenario and there's a ton at stake. Jellico had to get the shipping running like a military warship, rather than a science or diplomatic vessel. Riker wasn't used to that. Maybe he'd gotten a bit fat on his laurels.

    I didn't like the character Jellico, but I appreciated what he was trying to do. This wasn't an "at ease" scenario... everybody had to be pushing 120%. Who knows, perhaps once the conflict was over, Jellico would've showed a warmer and more congenial side. In any case, I was seriously relieved once Picard resumed command.

    I was also disappointed in Riker. He definitely revealed a side that was not flattering. Stewart's acting in that episode was epic. Even down to his reaction to Riker's struggle with Jellico.
     
  15. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    Very well put. :techman:
    That really is a problem for Riker, what would he have done if his new post as captain of another ship his xo starts acting that way? Or was it Riker too jealous that he was passed over for command of Enterprise? I sometimes think he was waiting for Picard to die/retire to get the Enterprise for himself.
     
  16. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    I'm never too kind to Riker for a multitude of reasons, but I'd be willing to come to his defense here. The man successfully engaged the Borg. He had to have been around during the Cardassian war. Even though he probably wasn't the best candidate to handle this negotiation, I'm still willing to say he'd be up to handling being on board a war time vessel

    His problem was that the new captain offered no professional courtesy to him beyond the 30 second introduction. Riker, just like everybody else, had to just shut up & deliver the demands of the mission on a nearly impossible scale, with very little input, & absolutely no excuses. Ultimately, THAT is what he's not use to. He had grown to expect that his input was not only welcomed, but preordained. It is not, certainly not when the mission is laid out in absolute specific detail. It was a hard pill for him to swallow

    His mistake was that he assumed that this was all due to Jellico's way of doing things & not perhaps a prerequisite of the mission itself. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that Jellico & perhaps with Starfleet's knowledge believed that this was the only way the mission could be done, right down to inevitably ruffling feathers on board the Enterprise

    It's insane to think that he'd be the kind of hardass that forced every order throughout his entire career. Who could work like that? This circumstance is a unique situation with very little wiggle room, & being a jerk was the hand he was dealt

    Riker, & everybody else for that matter, never stopped to consider that. They just assumed Jellico was unreasonable, just like Lemec assumed he was unreasonable. "Unreasonable" was his mission objective. It was the only way to make this work, & it did
     
  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    I think an XO who won't let the crew be pushed beyond their limits is better than an XO who will just blindly follow the captain's orders.
     
  18. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    Jellico didn't push anyone beyond their limits. He pushed them beyond their comfort zone. As was later seen when Data explains to Geordi exactly how the captain's orders could be met

    Many times during Picard's command, the crew needed to work extra hours, & achieve what seemed nearly impossible. They were willing to go that length for Picard because they trusted him from having built a relationship with him. Jellico had to demand that level of performance even though he had not yet had that opportunity. He had to just expect that it was "Starfleet's Finest Crew" & therefore they owed him that much, because they owe it to Starfleet, especially with the safety of the Federation on the line.

    Riker was wrong in that he believed himself to be too important to be just a piece of the mission, instead of one of it's architects, who had a say in what should be happening. He succumb to hubris. (Not the 1st time for him, btw) He needed to be thinking his way through the difficulty & looking at it from all perspectives, instead of just becoming resistant

    Excerpt From Ensigns of Command
    Odd that he forgets that being the case, when the captain isn't Picard. They worked their asses off in that episode, & no one bitched to the point of being relieved
     
  19. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Still that's one thing. Expecting the crew to work themselves to exhaustion immediately before entering a potent armed conflict with a bunch of Cardassians is another thing entirely.

    Also add to the fact that Jellico expected the crew to make an awkward change to a four shift rotation instead of three just because he felt like it, even when Riker tried to explain why it wasn't a good idea.
     
  20. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    There was the likelihood of an armed conflict with the Sheliak. That didn't stop Picard from working people to exhaustion. What's necessary is necessary

    It's never stated that the reason he changed the shift rotation is solely due to personal preference. It's also clear that Riker hasn't been told everything about the mission specifics. Bottom line is that the captain is in charge despite objection, & he's privy to info that his subordinates don't have

    Riker objects without really explaining anything, except that dept. heads think it will be difficult. When Data is XO he explains that even though things will be difficult, they can be done. Jellico's response is to tell them do the difficult thing. He knows. Nothing about this mission was going to be less than difficult, & it's presumptuous to think it's all because of Jellico's personal preference. Nobody knows that