So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by Dale Sams, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. Photoman15

    Photoman15 Commodore Commodore

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    Listen, Riker wouldn't put up with the shit he gave Jellico if he were put in command of a ship with a specific mission and his XO gave him even a fraction of the crap he gave Jellico.
     
  2. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, the writing team didn't deal well with the subtleties of Jellico and Necheyev. It was almost like those instances you recognized were the writer's way of saying, "in case you missed, these are antagonists!" It was almost like they didn't trust the audience enough to figure it out or they were afraid conversations would happen much like in this thread where people side with Jellico.

    For example,

    Jellico: "I want to go to four shifts, blah blah blah, get it done!"

    Audience: "Well that seems reasonable because of heightened tensions, preparations for war, etc."

    Jellico: "Jean-Luc get your stupid fish out of my ready room."

    Audience: "Oooooooooh, so he is an asshole."
     
  3. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    No one said it was a temporary assignment. Even Riker points out that they usually don't have the ceremony unless it's permanent. Jellico actually suspects that Picard won't even be coming back (& very nearly didn't).

    Maybe Jellico wasn't cordial in just telling Picard "The Enterprise is mine now", and then rubbing it in a bit, by handing the book off right then, but he did it respectfully, & Picard was sort of butting his nose in. He never said the fish thing to Picard. He said it to Riker

    I take it easy on Geordi a bit here. I mean Riker neglected an order, & then downright challenged the captain's authority in front of a subordinate. That's just plain terrible officer behavior

    All Geordi did was make counterpoints to the captain's directives, as a way of objecting slightly & his attitude was a little off from taking it personally, because the new directives kind of flew in the face of how he'd been doing things with his department, which previously had been considered some of the best work in the fleet. He has a right to be put off some. He's not just some flunky. He's one of Starfleet's best. Ultimately though, he carries out his orders without incident, & in turn, Jellico doesn't come down on him too hard for being a bit upset. You can tell he understands

    As for going to Riker. That's what he's supposed to do when he feels overwhelmed, and he & his department were. His suggestion to involve Picard was a last ditch desperate grab, & yeah it was stupid, but he's not outside his rights to suggest it.

    Riker, on the other hand, should have laughed at it, & told him "That's not going to work, Geordi. I'd be stupid to even try it. Jellico's the captain, & going to our ex-captain just makes me look like I don't respect his authority. He already thinks that about me because I botched an order up"
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Seriously? You're that determined to vilify the man because he has the audacity to put a personal touch on his office? In case you missed this from the episode...

    GEORDI(to Riker)I wonder how permanent this is going to be.

    RIKER I don't know... but they don't usually go through the ceremony if it's just a temporary assignment.

    So Riker admitted he didn't know. For all we know when Necheyev briefed Jellico it was assumed this would be a long term command change. Both of them seemed to think Picard was likely to die on that mission(oh by the way, the only reason he was released was because Jellico strongarmed Lemec). I wouldn't be surprised if the whole crew of the Cairo thinks the Enterprise is crewed by a bunch of whiny babies. ;)
     
  5. DarthPipes

    DarthPipes Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would have loved to have seen what kind of officers were on the Cairo. Definitely a missed opportunity.

    Okay, so maybe it was going to be longer than expected. Fair enough. But Jellico and Necheyev were still assholes with the way they went about the change. As Use of Time pointed out, it's like the writers had to pound it over the head of the audience that these were antagonists. Didn't Jellico literally throw the book at Picard.
     
  6. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's been a while since I've seen this ep, misplaced my disc. I wonder though if they could have just filled Riker in and had him be captain during this mission instead of Jellico. He was pretty good at diplomacy in that episode about the stable wormhole.
     
  7. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    I think that was what Riker initially wanted when Necheyev briefed them but she was pretty entrenched with Jellico due to his experience with Cardassians.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which is likely where Riker's pettiness comes from. He always saw the Enterprise as his and Starfleet dared to put an officer more experienced with the Cardassians in command.
     
  9. MikeH92467

    MikeH92467 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I hope Jellico got a huge commendation after that one. He managed to get a reluctant starship crew ready for the worst, he averted a war with the Cardassians and showed the balls of steel to bluff the Cardassians into giving Picard back. I thought the final scene where no one bothered to acknowledge Jellico's parting "It has been an honor to serve with you" may have been the biggest false note of all. Riker could have called the bridge crew to attention as he left, just as a respectful send off without false mushiness. But no, they just sat on their hands while a guy who pulled off a mission Kirk might not have been able to handle left the bridge. I also thought there should have been some sort of follow up with Riker discussing the situation with Picard and/or Troi regarding his conduct. The earlier poster was right: no way would Riker put up with the crap he gave Jellico and he needed to have his nose rubbed in it.
    When you get down to it Jellico treated officers who pleased him very well. Sure he loved Data, but even Data had to tell him back off once. Jellico did (albeit reluctantly) and held no grudge. He also had a friendly conversation with Geordi that led to him going back to Riker and begging him to fly the mission. Jellico was certainly a bigger man in that situation than I would have been.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I loved the performance Ronny Cox gave and wish we would have seen more of Jellico in Modern Trek.
     
  11. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    It wouldn't surprise me, though, if Riker's turning down a commission at least three times (and possibly a fourth time following "TBOBW" before he agreed to a reduction in rank to continue being Picard's beotch) that Starfleet would be reluctant to ever again offer him command of anything.
     
  12. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    I think a lot of a Jellico's attitude was a put on for the crew. Just like he made a big show for the Cardassians, he was making a show for the crew. He wanted them to think he was there to stay (remember Riker says they usually don't got through the ceremony they did in 10 Forward for a temp transfer), twitchy trigger figured, pissed off son of a bitch. Sews the whole act together so that no one slips at a critical time.

    Yeah, Jellico is probably more hard ass than Picard, but what we saw on the Enterprise could have been him exaggerating his personality.
     
  13. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Interesting idea about him playing it up, but I think if he were consciously putting on an act, he would have mended things with Riker after the crisis. Instead they still hate each other, even when he's forced to ask for Riker's help. His dislike for Riker must be real at the very least.
     
  14. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    If anything, I think the plot exaggerated his personality to provide conflict. What's funny is that the conflict generated by his personality just made the Enterprise crew look bad, as though Picard coddled them.

    Their dislike was genuine. I think that was the point of them dropping the ranks during their discussion. But Jellico was big enough to ask for Riker's help, something he didn't need to do. LaForge could've flown the shuttle. Riker acted like an ass (again), almost taunting Jellico when he said, "Then ask me." He enjoyed that moment too much for someone who'd been relieved of duty because he couldn't follow his captain's orders.

    --Sran
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If Riker wasn't being so selfish he'd have gone to Jellico himself to volunteer when he by his own words heard Jellico had been talking to every pilot on the ship. I personally think Jellico did the whole "drop the ranks" thing just so he could give Riker the opportunity to get everything off his chest before he flew that mission.
     
  16. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Which is precisely why I think Riker was in the wrong during that particular discussion. He could have offered an olive branch but instead made Jellico come to him (after talking to LaForge) rather than the opposite. I wish there had been an after-action scene in which Picard reminded Riker of his place. His behavior throughout the episode was inappropriate.

    --Sran
     
  17. DarthPipes

    DarthPipes Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I could imagine that being the case. Of course, if Starfleet was a real military organization, there's no way they would have allowed Riker to continue serving as Enterprise's first officer. Especially after they lost so many commanders after the Borg attack. He would have been ordered to assume command of a vessel. Perhaps they would have given him the choice of which one but the end result is he would have been kicked upstairs.
     
  18. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Which is part of the problem with Roddenberry's idea of what constitutes the Trek pantheon. Even humans of the twenty fourth century should be somewhat ambitious, though perhaps not ambitious for the same reasons that humans of today are. There's absolutely no reason why Riker wouldn't have wanted a command of his own, even if it meant leaving Enterprise.

    One idea that I think should have been explored is Riker remaining in command of Enterprise after "The Best of Both Worlds" as Picard is allowed to take an extended leave of absence on Earth (beginning in "Family"). Captain Riker is eventually demoted or otherwise removed from command later in the season, which conveniently happens when Picard is ready to return. This justifies keeping Riker aboard Enterprise and also explains how Picard could return. In any case, it's more believable than Riker remaining an executive officer for fifteen years.

    --Sran
     
  19. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed. You'd think that someone who'd gotten himself relieved of duty because of being so passionate about saving Picard, would've been looking for the earliest opportunity to aid in saving him, instead of stroking his own ego, sitting on ass waiting for Jellico to come around & kiss it. Basically it's the worst behavior Riker's ever had
     
  20. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    They screwed the pooch on the writing on these episodes. They're still good, they just just flipped things. If the crew had been busting ass to get what Jellico wanted done, not whining, and Jellico had made unreasonable--even outlandish--demands, we'd sided witht he crew. Instead, we have a captain trying to get ready for a war and a crew mad cause they've gotta put in a little extra effort.