So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Photon, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The planet belongs to the federation as per federation law/interstellar treaties AKA under alpha/beta quadrant law, the federation does have the right to institute eminent domain.

    BTW, the briar patch, before belonging to the federation, belonged to one of its member species or to someone else who gave it to the federation by treaty/etc AKA the baku settled land that already belonged to someone else.
    Which means even eminent domain may not be applicable; the baku could be simply evicted. Unless you assume adverse possession took place (and there are a lot of conditions that must be met for this).
     
  2. Wally

    Wally Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah. In the novels he is clearly being groomed to take over the Enterprise-E, whether or not the flagship of the Federation makes sense for a first command. He has done enough exceptional stuff since "Change of Heart" that really the only obstacle left in his own mind.

    That would end up as Worf as Captain, and Geordi has XO (Unless Data actively rejoins Starfleet, then he would probably become XO).
     
  3. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    One could imagine Picard would have a lot of say in who succeeds him as Enterprise captain given how long he's commanded the vessel. And Worf would certainly have the backing of other respected officers (Sisko, Riker, O'Brien) and the leader of an allied government (Martok) to help him along.

    Not necessarily. There's always the possibility that Worf names an outsider as his first officer. Not every position has to be filled by a current Enterprise officer. LaForge would be a good choice, but it figures that a position such as Enterprise executive officer would attract a great deal of interest. Remember how badly Shelby wanted the job when she thought Riker was leaving.

    --Sran
     
  4. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The main attraction with Geordi is that he needs to be moved onto the command track in time to be made captain of the USS Challenger by 2390.
     
  5. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Why? Because of "Timeless?" That happened in an alternate reality in which Kim and Chakotay were the only survivors from the doomed Voyager slipstream experiment.

    --Sran
     
  6. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Even if you accept a claim for eminant domain, the government can't come in simply overnight and whisk you off.

    Are you saying it would be ok for your government to just decide without telling you it wants the land your house resides on. Come along one day and just remove you from it.
     
  7. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    MacLeod:
    First, the baku are more like trespassers than legitimate owners. And trespassers are evicted.


    Second, if the baku somehow own the land their village is on as per federation law (600 in a small village owning the entire planet is absurd), as I already said:
    "Indeed, the clandestine plot was idiotic.
    The federation council should have invoked eminent domain through the legal channels. Assuming the baku had any legal right to the planet under federation law, that is (it doesn't look like it)."

    Invoking eminent domain implies, of course, just compensation (and proving public interest - easy to prove, in this case) AKA giving the baku other land to live their preferred lifestyle and giving them priority to the medical advances that will ensure their continued immortality.
    And if the baku would refuse this because they can't be bothered to use hyposprays, these being not pastoral enough for them - frankly, giving into such demands of egoist assholes at the cost of all the suffering the medical advances could prevent is immoral.
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    The Ba'ku can be immoral if they like, you and I may not like it but such is life. The Ba'ku wer initially thought to be pre-warp as such the Prime Directive applies, once the connection between the Son'a and the Ba'ku was discovered it became an internal matter between them also a Prime Directive matter. So to up hold their ideals the Federation had no buinsess being there in the first place. Sometimes upholding your ideals/morals puts you in a weaker position.

    Really given the planets location within the Briar Patch the Son'a might have been able to go and do the deed without the Federation being aware of it.
    But as you say the clandestine plot was absurd.
     
  9. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    MacLeod, as per the movie Dougherty told Picard from the beginning that the prime directive doesn't apply because the baku (and then, the sona) are not natives and interfering doesn't disturb their natural evolution.
    So, the baku can be immoral if they like - only to be bitch-slapped by the federation evicting them.

    Also, don't think I haven't noticed how you went from legitimate arguments to the fictional 24th century Prime Directive - which is based on garbage (aka proven false) anthropology and sociology.
     
  10. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So the Feds didn't learn their lesson from the Organians? Just because a civilization looks like it's undeveloped, and you think they won't notice being moved during the night, it doesn't mean that they don't secretly have the power to bite your arrogant ass off and spit it back in your face. If they wanted to.

    Why not make first contact and explain the situation? They might just volunteer to move, for the "needs of the many." You're screwing with them anyway, why would you care if they suddenly became aware of space travel?

    I agree with Picard.
     
  11. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Guess what? The baku don't have the power to enforce any of their claims.

    And if you think the federation arrogant, you haven't been paying attention to klingons, romulans, etc - or the good old USA, China, etc.

    What you just described is eminent domain. Its first stage, that is.
     
  12. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Except the Federation didn't do that, so the Federation never tried to establish eminant domain at least legally.

    Anyway I think we are verring slighlty off the thread topic, the Ba'ku situation has been discussed ad infinatum in the movie forums.
     
  13. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's been a while since I've seen the film, but I thought it was only after Data went crazy and Picard spoke to Sojef that he found out they were not natives. Picard is the one who tells Dougherty that the Prime Directive is unbroken in his report. I'd have to rewatch to be sure though.

    If Starfleet knows from the start the Baku are space-farers, why bother with the duck blind?
     
  14. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Without the duck blind and the plan to kidnap the baku, the movie would have no plot and Picard would be left without support for his self-righteous speeches.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  15. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You could say that about any Star Trek episode :)
     
  16. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In your opinion. The Baku settled on an uninhabited planet and had been there, how long? The Federation, by its own policy, didn't have a legal leg to stand on.

    And that makes it right ... right?

    Sounds more like what they used to call "manifest destiny." You know, like in the early 1800s when the US Gov't. took Native American lands by treaty, and when that didn't work, taking the land by force. It was "legal," but it wasn't right.

    Regardless of the benefits to other Federation citizens, moving a colony of people against their will is not the right thing to do.

    Besides, there was no guarantee that the particles or whatever they were would work outside that environment anyway. If the experiment failed, you've wronged a bunch of people and destroyed a planet for nothing.
     
  17. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Carcazoid, have you even watched the movie?

    You only made a single point that that was not contradicted by the movie (we saw the full extent of baku 'power'; the federation has 2 legal legs to stand on and then some; it's near-certain the harvesting method will work) or was not an irrelevant value judgement:
    The movie wanted to convey a situation like the trial of tears, etc. That's obvious.
    What's also obvious is that it failed to do so. Equating an obvious eminent domain situation to the conquest of the amerindians is quite the straw-man.
     
  18. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    But it isn't an obvious eminant domain.

    1.>We don't know how that region came to be Federation
    2.>The Ba'ku settled on that world prior to the Federation being founded.
    3.>If the Ba'ku settled on that world prior to anyone claiming it fell within their sphere of influence then eminant domain can't apply.

    Is there a specifc line in the film that says that region belonged to another power prior to the Ba'ku setteling on the planet?
     
  19. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Already answered:
    www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=8415364&postcthe borgount=41

    Plus, the federation doesn't claim no one's land without searching for the civilisations/life-forms existing there. Indeed, no local power is portrayed as quite so negligent/lazy.


    BTW, I and my neighbors can't claim an uninhabited island by hiding there. There are a series a conditions to be met - and the baku meet none of them.

    Nor can I and my neighbors claim the legal system doesn't apply to me and make our own - again, there are a lot of conditions to be met; conditions the baku don't meet.
     
  20. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^No I asked for an explicit line i.e

    "This region of space was claimed by x in (year) which was before the Ba'ku settled on that world" or something similiar.

    Sure the Federation could have had it ceded to them by treaty but if the Ba'ku settled on that world in say 2090 and x species claimed that region as within their sphere of influence in 2091. Then the Ba'ku where there first.