So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by T J, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. Captain X

    Captain X Rear Admiral

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    Does that mean you don't want to fuck me? I totally had the lube all ready and everything. :p

    In all seriousness though, I think name-calling like that should be avoided. I know the kind of fan you're talking about, but people like that are better left ignored.

    Unless they make a complete fool of themselves, in which case let there be lulz. :devil:
     
  2. BenRoethig

    BenRoethig Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    He doesn't go to the academy until his late 20s in the altered timeline.
     
  3. Captain X

    Captain X Rear Admiral

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    And you still don't go right from cadet to captain - it's not a popularity contest.
     
  4. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    It's looking more and more like a movie that will aggravate the hell out of people like me who happen to think that basic canon should be respected. There is No. Damn. Way. that Kirk and Chekov should be attending the Academy at the same time -- Kirk is 12-13 years OLDER than Chekov. Kirk states in "The Deadly Years" that he is 34 years old. Chekov states in "Who Mourns For Adonais?" that he is 22 years old. McCoy is at least 5-7 years older than Kirk, based on both the RL age differences between Shatner and Kelley, plus the fact that in "The Way To Eden" one of the space hippies was originally supposed to be McCoy's adult daughter, Joanna.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It seems simple enough for Kirk to attend the Academy at the same time with any single one of the other characters - he simply has to enroll at a higher or younger age than this other character.

    Problems only arise if he's supposed to be in the Academy simultaneously with multiple characters. Say, Chekov, Uhura and Sulu could all be there in the same time, although the first one would probably not be in the same class with the other two - but McCoy in that case shouldn't be in the same bunch. However, note that none of the spoilers show any other identifiable cadets besides Cadet McCoy sharing screentime with cadet Kirk, in terms of those red uniforms anyway.

    The way the spoilers so far play it out, it would seem that Uhura and Sulu are in the Academy and in the process of graduating when Kirk first meets them in that bar brawl. Then we hop forward in time, and Kirk enlists along with McCoy, and these two graduate more or less apace, both having enlisted as old geezers (Kirk because he was late to realize this was his destiny, McCoy perhaps because he studied medicine first). Possibly Chekov is a classmate.

    Further time jumps then take place. McCoy, a medical academician, graduates at a higher rank than Sulu, Uhura or Chekov, and thus quickly reaches the demonstrated LtCmdr rank.

    So in the end, how Kirk catches up is the sole big mystery. Whether that's a showstopper will depend on the exact details of the story. Getting past Sulu or Uhura by three ranks' worth is quite a feat...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. EJD1984

    EJD1984 Commander Red Shirt

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    I would think that if my theory holds up, there is most likely the an 4 (or 8) year gap.
     
  7. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Another thing that indicates a rather wide gap is that in one of the bridge shots, Scotty is in uniform.

    The impression I get from the spoilers is that when we first meet Scotty, he has been kicked out of Starfleet for that stunt with the transporter (and what the fuck is going on, the transporter is just NOW being invented? :wtf: ).

    Oh well. As long as there *is* a gap - preferably of many years - between Cadet Kirk and Captain Kirk, I suppose I can deal with it. No way does any Cadet ever get instantly promoted to the rank of Captain. (Even the cadets in "Valiant" were still cadets, just with self-made 'field' ranks.)
     
  8. BenRoethig

    BenRoethig Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No you don't. What's why I'm leaning towards the thought that the scene with Kirk in uniform is not from the alternate timline that most of the movie takes place in, but in a restored TOS timeline. The one where Kirk went to the acadamy in 2350 and served abord the Republic and Farragut. Notice that all the cuts on his face are gone without a trace. They also seemed to choose a cut of that scene that doesn't show too much.
     
  9. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    IIRC, Scotty was experimenting with a new formula that expands the way a transporter can be used when he gets transferred to "Hoth".
     
  10. Procutus

    Procutus Admiral Admiral

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    I've had a problem with this as well, and you've enunciated my concerns nicely. According to the ST Chronology (by the Okudas), there was a nine year span between Kirk graduating and becoming captain.

    Somehow, I'm not expecting this to happen in this movie.
     
  11. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Come to think of it, this is how McCoy's career was always supposed to have gone, if you buy the D.C. Fontana backstory.

    Here's another possible way it could play out. Kirk is in temporary command of the ship during the film, with our various other main characters also taking their usual spots temporarily. At the end of the crisis everyone goes off to their normal career paths, but when Kirk is promoted to be the permanent captain in some years' time, he brings everyone back as his personal choices for senior officers. This implies that Starfleet personnel policies are more like the 18th century Royal Navy than our current system, but that's hardly unprecedented in Trek.

    And maybe the slots didn't open up for people all at once, which is why McCoy hasn't joined yet in WNMHGB, and why Sulu is working astrophysics rather then the helm.
     
  12. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Again, only by our standards for promotion. In Napoleonic navies this sort of thing was more the rule than the exception; until you made post captain seniority didn't matter.

    We already know that Starfleet doesn't worry about time-in-grade the way we do today. Riker doesn't really damage his career by remaining as Picard's XO long after he could have been promoted, and nobody thinks there's anything all that weird about the alternate Picard staying a lieutenant forever. Maybe they've got nothing against meteoric rises either.

    Instantly going from cadet to captain is still excessive, of course. But here's how Thomas Cochrane (the model for Jack Aubrey in O'Brian's novels) did it.

    1793: Joins RN as midshipman, aged 17
    1795: made acting lieutenant
    1796: passes lieutenant exam
    1800: appointed to command a sloop
    1801: promoted to post-captain.

    So that's eight years from midshipman to full captain.
     
  13. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, but the US Navy (and by extension Starfleet) has a lot more ranks. Kirk would, upon graduation from the Academy, have to progress from Ensign, through the two Lieutenant grades, to Lieutenant Commander, Commander, and *then* to full Captain. So logically speaking it should take longer for Kirk to make Captain than it would in your example, wouldn't it?
     
  14. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And in the seafort saga, the main character goes from ensign to Captain in three weeks.
     
  15. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nicholas Seafort actually goes from Senior Midshipman to Captain in three weeks without even a "stint" as Lieutenant. The United Nations Naval Service of the Seafort universe was set up more like the old Royal Navy. There were Midshipmans; four on a ship with only one senior, or First Middy. Then, there were various grades of Lieutenant (First, Second, Third). Finally, Captain and Admiral (Rear, Vice and Admiral of the Fleet).

    It did have a Commander rank, but that was a special case in the second book as a compromise between the brass to not "demote" Seafort back to Midshipman after the events of the first book.

    Also, quick promotion to Captain or command of a ship is a staple of the seagoing genre from which Trek partially takes its inspiration. So Kirk getting his hands on the Enterprise while still a middy/cadet/whatever I'm willing to go with as long as it works logically and organically in the story that's told.

    In Midshipman's Hope, Seafort's promotion is logical and organic to the plot. A lot of thought went into the regulations that made Seafort take command after the incident with the Captain and senior officers. Even then it took awhile before Seafort became captain of the Hibernia. Also, it's one of the few military SF books that I've read that goes into depth about the differences between line and staff officers, and why one can command while the other cannot. Seafort as senior line officer thus is the only one who can take the big chair despite there being other officers like the engineer, CMO and pilot.

    Perhaps a similar logic will be at work in Star Trek ('09) or not, but I'm willing to go with it as long as it makes sense in context of the story. Then again, the events where Kirk takes "command" may happen years before the brief shot of him in gold tunic in the trailer.
     
  16. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Not really comparable, though, as it would take only three promotions to reach captain in the Napoleonic period, instead of seven. And though the percentage of captains inservice then might not be much different from a modern service, many of these were on half pay without assignment, whereas today they would have left the service or retired.

    Rather preposterous arrangements which give no thought to the larger personnel management implications. The more that model is avoided the better.

    The personnel practices of the Royal Navy c. 1800 are probably not a very good comparison for Starfleet. The navy's policies reflected the class system of the time, when social background and political connections mattered more than ability. Cochrane had an enormous benefit in that he was born Lord Cochrane, heir to the Earl of Dundonald, and entered the navy at age five -- on paper -- when his navy captain uncle entered his name on his ship's roster. It is true that he had great ability, but officers like him or Nelson (whose uncle was Controller of the Navy) were more likely to have their abilities recognized than officers from a middle class background.

    --Justin
     
  17. blaXXer

    blaXXer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    We do not know yet. For all we know the film could fast-forward, like it does already. or he could be acting-captain, when pike gets mutilated and then serve under garrovick and whats-his-face.
     
  18. Captain Intrepid

    Captain Intrepid Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So? Starfleet doesn't have to work like the US Navy, why can't it work more like the Royal Navy? The RN's much more interesting anyways.
     
  19. Logical Leopard

    Logical Leopard Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I think Starfleet works like Starfleet. And I also think that Kirk rose through the ranks fast, but more like 9 years or so instead of 9 weeks. Ranks in Star Trek have sometimes been a little weird. Kirk supposedly rose quickly. I think Data was the same rank all the way through TNG. So, who's to say that the criteria actually make real-world sense?

    Kirk is a hotshot. Thus he rose like a hotshot. Data is very capable, but he's not a hotshot like Kirk. Thus he didn't rise like Kirk and become a Captain before his factory warranty expired. Promotions appear to be more character driven than achievement driven.
     
  20. Captain X

    Captain X Rear Admiral

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    Which is a stupid way of doing things, because you want someone competent to command, not just someone who's popular.