Should Illia and Decker have survived ?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Belz..., Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    How is it "after the fact"? ;) The ST II novelization, with Saavik's backstory clues, was simultaneously released with the movie and Vonda McIntyre fully expected the one line used by Spock to describe Saavik's heritage to appear in the film.

    I suppose it's "after the fact" is you saw the "Presentation Trailer" at ShoWest: BTW, the ShoWest clip is linked here:
    http://therinofandor.blogspot.com.au/2007/07/saavik-shes-half-romulan-jim-many-fans.html

    She did sign a "Phase II" contract, which may have kept her bald for 26 weeks every year for five years.
     
  2. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I suspect for the TV show it would have been a bald cap for Persis.
     
  3. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I think she agreed to shave her hair only because they went for a movie.
     
  4. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Well, she bought and wore her own bald cap to her audition, impressing the execs, but the question - when it was still the "Phase II" series - was would she be willing to shave her head for the role? And she said "Yes."
     
  5. DaleC76

    DaleC76 Captain Captain

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    I would have preferred Decker not even existing. I would have made Ilia a former lover of Kirk's and given him the job of trying to "reach" the Ilia probe. I always felt that Kirk was too passive in TMP. Of course, I guess the ending would need changing.
     
  6. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Another one ? ;)
     
  7. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Well, of course, that's because "In Thy Image" was written with the suspicion that Shatner would be reluctant to agree to more than the first 13 episodes of "Phase II". If his movie career had taken off as planned in 1977, he'd have scarpered.
     
  8. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    They thought they'd pass the baton over to Decker ?
     
  9. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    That was the plan, yes. Shatner had an option of staying, leaving, or going to semi-regular guest star as the Admiral.
     
  10. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    I'm glad Phase II was a non starter. I have a feeling it would have been terrible.

    Realigning the ducks for TNG was definitely the best way to go.
     
  11. Mysterion

    Mysterion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wonder who'd have been Decker's XO at that point? Am guessing Sulu.
     
  12. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Or Spock if Nimoy had agreed to be part of the series. What exactly was the timetable for his reprising the Spock role for TMP? I know that he wasn't expected to be in Phase II initially. It's why the character of Xon was created. But he eventually agreed to return for TMP. Was there any possibility he'd have been part of another TV series?

    --Sran
     
  13. Mysterion

    Mysterion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^^
    Everything I've read about the Phase II series, is that it would have been without Spock/Nimoy. This is why you get the character Xon in the Phase II scripts, and not Spock. My understanding is that he didn't jump back onto the wagon until it turned into a major-budget movie (i.e. ST:TMP).
     
  14. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    ^Thanks!

    --Sran
     
  15. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    I was certainly ready for "the next adventure" a week after seeing TMP on the big screen, and when I got my hands on back issues of "Starlog" with Susan Sackett's regular column, and a copy of "The Making of ST:TMP", I realised how close that series got to being made.

    In reflection, I fear it may not have gotten past the 13 episodes. The cast, as described in the "Phase II" Writers' Bible, seemed way overextended for a 70s show. Especially after the original series essentially concentrated only on three cast members. "Phase II" was to have "the big eight" (ie, including Chapel, but with Xon standing in for Spock), plus Rand. And Decker and Ilia. Although Xon was a whole new, quite different Vulcan, I'm sure fan outrage about "Where's Spock?" would have been strong.

    A failure at 13 episodes may have meant the end of new Trek forever. Making a leap to the big screen would have been unthinkable at that point.

    But, yeah, I was also thrilled when I read the character decscriptions that were sent out to casting people for TNG, and I realised that Decker, Ilia and Xon/Questor had been morphed into Riker, Troi and Data.

    Nimoy's mood at the time? Nope. He was very angry about licensing, and desperately trying to shed the Spock tag. Had the ratings for "Phase II" been huge, they may have thrown him big bucks to do a guest star turn, but it was only Robert Wise's insistence re Nimoy participating in TMP that led to Paramount resolving Nimoy's salary and licensing complaints and he was offered a "favoured nations" contract to match Shatner's. A huge financial incentive.
     
  16. Mysterion

    Mysterion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think you're right, if they'd tried to feature everyone every week. It might have worked if they'd gone for more of an ensemble approach, like you see in Deep Space nine, for example. In DS9 they had a large number of regulars, plus a pretty big list of recurring characters. But you didn't see everyone all the time, just whoever was needed for a particular story.

    Phase II might have worked with this. You don't need Chapel every week. Heck, you could have gone a week without Decker or Xon with the right story. That would have saved some money, and maybe given the writers a chance to explore some characters they might not have otherwise.
     
  17. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Would that have worked on a ship, though? DS9 worked in part because it was set on a space station that functioned like a huge floating city. Sisko was the mayor: Odo was the police chief, and so on. Like any other community, there were the regular townspeople (Quark, Rom, Garak), plus frequent travelers who came and went as needed (Martok, Winn, Dukat, Cretak, Ross, Kassidy Yates, etc.). It wasn't necessary for the mayor or the city physician to play a huge role every week because each episode focused on a different aspect of the town and its history.

    A starship is a different matter because most of the action happens on its bridge. You could write a story about something happens only in engineering or on the holodeck, but a reason would have to be given for the story's self-contained nature. After a TV series that revolved around two or three characters, it would have been difficult for the audience to accept a show that featured everyone, albeit across several episodes rather than all at once.

    I think if Deep Space 9 had happened before TNG that it would have failed. The Next Generation was a nice bridge between the two concepts and allowed fans to enjoy episodes that weren't centered only on the series lead character or characters.

    --Sran
     
  18. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    She was now married to the Executive Producer, though.

    No money-saving there. Front-credits regular cast get paid whether they're in a script or not.
     
  19. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    I actually thought this was the cleverest thing about the Phase II treatment. They knew Shatner wasn't a given, so they incorporated a back-up captain into the format documents.

    Riker was always pretty much destined to remain the the trusty Number One right through TNG from conception to reception, but Decker was always more like an heir-apparent to the Enterprise captaincy. Even though ultimately they decided he was expendable in the final movie.

    ISTR wasn't there talk that he was Matt Decker's son? So while it's clear Kirk had some pull in getting Will Decker the captaincy, and Decker certainly resents it when Kirk shows up again, it's also possible that there might have been latent feelings because of Kirk's involvement in the incident where his dad was killed (even though obviously Kirk didn't kill Matt Decker, Matt Decker killed himself).
     
  20. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    But did that kind of ensemble storytelling really exist back in the late seventies? Hill Street Blues was still a few years away and that sort of approach didn't really catch onto until later--in the eighties and nineties. TV science fiction at the time was largely represented by Glen Larson-type shows. Buck Rogers, Battlestar Galactica, that kind of thing.

    We can't assume that a DS9-like show would have worked back in the those days--or would have even occurred to anyone. There's a reason that I Love Lucy isn't more like Seinfeld. :)

    Different times, different expectations.