Should Illia and Decker have survived ?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Belz..., Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I realise that, because of the changes to the story they made when converting In Thy Image into TMP, their sacrifice makes sense, but I quite like the addition of Decker and Illia, so I wonder who else thinks it would've been better if they had "survived" the movie and came back for the sequels.

    What do you think ?

    And what about Xon ? Would it have been better if Saavik had been given his role in TWOK+ or if he had somehow been included in TMP ?
     
  2. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I loved Decker and Ilia. They had an interesting dynamic amidst the established setting, plus he showed Kirk up (which he definitely needs more often than not).

    Xon would have been interesting to have seen as well, though not at the cost of Saavik (she was one of the elements I liked most about TWOK).
     
  3. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Not with the way TMP was written. If the film had progressed more along the lines of how Phase II was originally envisioned, then keeping them around would have made more sense. As it stands, I'm fine with their character concepts being used for Riker and Troi.

    --Sran
     
  4. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Except Decker wasn't an ass. And Illia could fly a ship.
     
  5. Mysterion

    Mysterion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Decker, Ilia, and Xon ended up becoming (more or less, for all intents) Riker, Troi, and Data. Hopefully, if there'd been a Phase II TV series, Decker and Ilia would have ended up being more interesting/likeable than Riker and Troi were. As for Xon, I fear the poor guy would have been scorned as just being a "Spock clone" (aka "The Pulaski Effect" seen in TNG's second season).
     
  6. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Given that Decker and Ilia were basically the first drafts of Riker and Troi, I don't feel like we were particularly deprived of their characters. And if they'd kept Ilia, we probably would have never gotten Saavik in the next movie . . ..
     
  7. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Honestly, Ilia is a much better character than Saavik.
     
  8. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm curious: why do you feel that way?
     
  9. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    I was ready for new Decker and Ilia adventures in January 1980.

    I was thrilled when I ordered an "In Thy Image" script from then-Lincoln Enterprises and it showed that only the Ilia Probe (aka Tasha) was extinguished when the new V'ger entity departed with Decker, and that, originally, Ilia was suddenly restored at the end. And, IIRC, Decker sends a hopeful message that he may not be gone forever.

    The plan for Decker was that a solution to his return would be explained at the beginning of which ever episode was selected to be Episode #2.

    Of course, in the novelization of TMP, the ship also lost a security guard, Phillips, to V'ger's digitization, and Kirk commends him along with Decker and Ilia when he lists them as "missing".
    http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Phillips_%28security%29

    BTW, Ilia did survive (at least for a few panels) in the first LA Times Syndicate's daily comic strip sequel to TMP, which probably started using an "In Thy Image" script and the assumption that Ilia would be a continuing character.

    Did you realise that, according to signage used onscreen in ST II, Xon has an office at Starfleet HQ? The sign was auctioned off in the It's a Wrap! eBay auctions!

    I'd always hoped they'd bring Xon and David Gautreaux into TNG or DS9, although DC Comics' "The Origin of Saavik" two-parter, he was sent off on a distant, secret mission... which caused difficulties for Saavik, who'd been bonded with him when first rescued from Hellguard, and she has suddenly entered the pon farr.

    Saavik, as written in one of the story proposals for ST II, was originally a male character, Dr Savik.
     
  10. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    But wasn't Sulu actually the one flying the ship? As for Decker, it's hard to know if he was an ass or not. He clearly wasn't in the best of moods for most of TMP, but that's probably Kirk's fault for taking his ship away from him.

    --Sran
     
  11. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Just more interesting, mostly because she at least displayed some semblance of being alien.

    Alley-Saavik was more human than Spock, and Curtis-Saavik was just female Spock. Ilia was uniquely different and had a lot of untapped potential with her healing ability and oath of celibacy (something that should've been explored more in the film). Android Ilia would have also had her own brand of distinctiveness had they chosen to go that route.

    Plus, of the three, I think Khambatta was the most talented.
     
  12. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    As Alley-Saavik was half-Romulan, it's not surprising that she had a more emotional persona than Spock. Curtis was told by Nimoy to play the character with as little emotion as possible (the Romulan angle was never used on screen, and Nimoy decided to ignore it), so it makes sense that she would have been more like Spock.

    --Sran
     
  13. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    Not really, since Vulcans and Romulans are biologically identical. The Vulcan repression/control of emotions is a cultural development, not a biological one.
     
  14. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    True, but if we're to believe Saavik's backstory, her being raised on Hellguard would certainly explain why she's rougher around the edges than the typical Vulcan.

    --Sran
     
  15. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, Jack B Sowards probably didn't realise that. His script directions say,

    He seemingly assumes that full Romulans were at least physically distinguishable from Vulcans?
     
  16. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    ^The Romulans of TOS were virtually indistinguishable from Vulcans, though they did seem to wear less formal hairstyles. This was before the forehead ridges were introduced in TNG. In any case, I wouldn't necessarily have known that Saavik was Romulan if I hadn't read the TWOK novel.

    --Sran
     
  17. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    And vastly more beautiful, with or without hair.
     
  18. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, the Hellguard backstory created in TrekLit after the fact does explain it quite well, but not the mere fact of her parents' different cultures.
     
  19. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think Deltans are one of the alien races that had quite a bit of story potential to mine. I would certainly have liked to see the characters stay around although I doubt Persis would have been keen to shave her head every 3 years...

    I enjoyed the characters so much that I even went so far to have custom heads made for my DST TWoK action figures, along with Chapel and Rand. Still in the process of painting them.

    I'm even writing a TMP era comic strip on Youtube - a sort of Star Trek/Babylon5 cross over which features the return of Decker, Ilia and everybody on Epsilion IX station. I thought it would be interesting to consider why they had come back, using themes like the 4400 or Solaris or the new French thriller the Returned.

    I've pitched Deltans as having the ability to sense and control pheromones so empathy is limited to those species who emit them and whose emotional states you are familiar with but it also ties in with Ilia's anasthesia and stuff in the TWoK novel. They've also exhibited a low level psychic bond with loved ones. All this is far more versatile than betazoid telepathy.
     
  20. Retu

    Retu Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Well there's this bit from The Enterprise Incident: