Shinzon's motives

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    Because he wants to defeat Earth easily, and show the Romulan people that he could achieve what the Romulans' leaders had always failed to do - over centuries: destroy Earth.
     
  2. Tiny Timby

    Tiny Timby LIKE LIGHTNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING Administrator

    Joined:
    May 28, 2001
    You are not the English Police. Don't do this.
     
  3. Khan444

    Khan444 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Shinzon's motives never made ANY sense. Why does he want to destroy Earth exactly? EVERYTHING that's revealed about him makes it much more likely that he'd want to destroy Romulus. The Romulans created him, the Romulans abandoned him and sent him to die a slow and painful death in the mines, the Romulans abuse, oppress, and mistreat his Reman "brothers." If the plot made ANY sense, then he should be attacking Romulus, not Earth. The only thing that Picard ever did to Shinzon was to exist, and without Picard, Shinzon wouldn't exist. Picard wasn't even aware of Shinzon's existence or who he was until Shinzon TOLD HIM. It's like the screenwriters didn't bother to apply ANY kind of logic to their characters or plot, how did the studio allow this script to be filmed, I'll never understand that. Still, Nemesis was NOWHERE near as infuriating as Insurrection, I HATE that movie.
     
  4. billcosby

    billcosby Commodore Commodore

    Oh, I like the movie. A fellow long time Trek nerd friend and I rewatched it this summer and I have to admit, it was far more entertaining to me than ever. Lots of stupid moments, sure. Still, there was enough fun and entertainment in this flick to make it worth 2 hours... that still doesn't make Shinzon's motives any clearer. ;) Perhaps he should have spent more time on his efficient revenge fantasy and less on his fashion: I don't think the navy and purple Reman shoulder pads helped. We were laughing at him. I'll bet Q was even laughing at him.

    Some of the best questions about his motives were never answered. It would have been interesting to see Shinzon attack Picard, but then have Picard and Shinzon work together to find out how/why he was created and THEN have him turn on Picard. You know, because he's a villain and all. Why not use Picard for that?

    Shinzon's page at Memory Alpha is really interesting. This is what I found intriguing:
    "In his foreword to J.M. Dillard's novelization of the film, screenwriter John Logan says that he based the name "Shinzon", as well as all the other Reman and Romulan names in the story on ancient Chinese names, in homage to Gene Roddenberry's creation of the Romulans as an analog to 1960's Communist China."

    I thought they were a homage to Romans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  5. Khan444

    Khan444 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Yes, I thought so too. They have a Senate and a Preator, just like the Romans did. They rule by consensus, just like the Romans. There's the whole Romulus and Remus analogy, and the militarism, how were they based on Communist China, I don't get that?
     
  6. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Think back to the '60s when China was still hidden away and flexing their muscles behind the scenes and the Soviet Union was seemingly actively trying to take over the world. The Klingons were the Soviets and the Romulans were the mysterious Chinese. Much of that changed during the modern Trek series especially TNG.
     
  7. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    That doesn't make sense, why does he want to defeat Earth at all? To further Romulan interests? He has no reason to further their interests, why should care about showing the Romulans what he can achieve, when he has every reason to hate them?

    Again, the destorying Earth plot would have made sense if Shinzon was merely an over ambitious Romulan commander who hated the Federation, instead some evil clone raised by space Orcs who had no reason to hate the Federation.
     
  8. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2002
    Yep, his target should have been Romulus. Having the Enterprise saving the home planet of the Romulan Empire would have been a much more significant event as well.
     
  9. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    --but Gene Roddenberry didn't create the Romulans. Weren't they created by Paul Schneider in "Balance of Terror"? And yes, they were an homage to Romans.

    It was only later when the Klingon Empire came along and then it was suggested Klingons were a stand-in for the USSR. Then later again, well if the Klingons were the Soviets, who were the Romulans supposed to be? Well, Communist China? Cuz who else is left? Cubans?

    But the Romulans were not designed as a Communist China analog, and they weren't created by GR. What's Logan thinking?
     
  10. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Location:
    The glorious Shetland Isles!
    Shinzon's motives were very confusing. He has such hostility and hatred for Picard, a man who has done nothing for him. He eradicates the Romulan Senate, but that's where his revenge against the people who created him and then dumped into a pit to rot ended. He should have been on a bigger rampage against the Romulan Empire, rather than Earth/UFP.

    Then they should have dropped the whole "if you'd had my life you'd be just the same as me" and "I'm a mirror" crap. The nature-vs-nurture debate does not need a film made about it, especially not a Trek film.

    Nemesis should have been the TNG crew's ST6, with them and the Romulans finally starting to make proper overtures towards peace.
     
  11. Stoo

    Stoo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Location:
    Rainroom
    I dunno about making him Picard's actual son, but I'm in agreement with some of this. I wish they'd made Shinzon a more complex character than ending up Obviously Evil. So while I'd want to keep his conflict and rivalry with Picard, somehow, I'd try and avoid the bit about destroying earth. Have him on some other dark and destructive agenda (maybe against romulus) and Picard trying desperately to pull him away, because Picard knows he must have some goodness inside.
     
  12. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    I guess that's what "Unification" was intended to be.
    Just as TUC was about TOS crew finally making peace with the Klingons, "Unification" was TNG's counterpart making peace with the Romulans (of course, failing due to Romulan duplicity and treachery).
     
  13. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    No. As I said, to prove his superiority to his oppressors and show the Romulan people that he could achieve what the Romulans' leaders had always failed to do, over several centuries.
     
  14. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    1. Why should I care about that, how does this make him an interesting villain, his motives for attacking Earth are so forced, that I find his motives and characterization dull. Destroying Earth to prove he is superior to the Romulans, is frankly a really stupid motive. This motive would sense if he were Romulan, but as a former slave of the Romulans he has no reason to try and impress them.

    2. That would further Romulan interests and again, if he hates them why would he care about impressing them? Why do anything to further their interests? Wouldn't killing his oppressors prove his superiority just as well and again from a characterization stand point, it makes more sense that he would want to destroy Romulus rather then Earth, wouldn't he be superior Romulans if he managed to kill them all.

    Really having Shinzon try to destory Romulus would have made for a better movie, it would have made the Enterprise crew more heroic if they saved the planet of an enemy, rather then just saving their own home planet again.
     
  15. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    Well, box office receipts prove you right.

    Hey, you asked for our opinions. You asked, "Do you think Nemesis would have been better if Shinzon had better motives?"

    No one said you had to like what we came up with. It makes no sense to you, but I was fine with it.

    I don't think Sela's plans ("Unification", etc) were all that smart either.

    He did. He turned the Senate to ash.
     
  16. vulcan redshirt

    vulcan redshirt Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2013
    Location:
    UK
    Assuming Shinzon was telling the truth about his treatment by the Romulans, the psycological effects of that have almost certainly made him (partly) insane, which would allow for some inconsistency of character, and illogical decisions.

    WHy the hatred for Picard? - jealousy, that Picard had, in Shinzon's opinion, had a good and easy life (maybe JLP should have told Shinzon about his experinece with the Borg), and also knowing that, if his plan to cripple the Federation was undertaken, leaving JLP alive would be dangerous, as Shinzon would be hunted down until one or other died.

    As to not using the Scimitar against Romulus?, he didnt want to just destroy the Romulans, he probably wanted them to feel what he had been through. Start an all out war with the Federation, thereby ensuring the destruction of much of the old guard Romulan fleet, and taking over the RSE completely with a Reman command and military. This would then allow complete subjugation of the Romulan people, probably in preparation to turn them all into slaves, spending their entire lives suffering, rather than just being killed off relatively quickly. Also, Remus looks a barren world, with little liklihood of food production, so to use thalaron on Romulus would make supply and logistics more difficult.

    and a small side point, I wonder if the Federation ever found a use for the single Scorpion in their shuttlebay after it was beamed on board the E? Unless there was a deleted scene indicating otherwise, I got the impression the whole ship was beamed aboard, not just Data and Picard.
     
  17. Khan444

    Khan444 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    The problem is that while those would be interesting motivations, at no point in the actual movie is it stated or even vaguely implied that those are Shinzon's motives, so its pure speculation. What we got in the movie is that he wants to destroy Earth for some reason, and hates Picard, for some reason, both of which are never clarified.
     
  18. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    Some of us got it by ourselves. The clues are right there. Why do some audience members need everything spoonfed to them? :confused:

    What's wrong with a little speculation after seeing a Trek movie?

    "So why do you think Spock needed to rid himself of human emotions"?

    "Why was Saavik crying at Spock's funeral?"

    "Where was Amanda during Spock's fal tor pan?"

    "What was the Probe asking the whales"?

    "What does God need with a starship?" (Well, okay, that one was asked in the film. How about, do you think he was a rogue Cytherian?")

    "Why does Kirk suddenly hate Klingons when he happily hosted some in ST V"?

    And so on...
     
  19. Khan444

    Khan444 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    No, don't you dare go there. I hate it when people who want SOME answers are accused of wanting things "spoon-fed" to them. That's bull and the height of condescension. There is NOTHING in the movie to indicate that. Nothing that anyone says, does, or acts like indicates that is what Shinzon's motivation was. You may BELIEVE that those were his motivation, buts its merely your opinion. In fact, everything in the movie would seem to contradict that. There is evidence in all the other movies for the other things you mentioned.
    1. Spock is half-Vulcan and wants to embrace their logical ways, but can't quite let go of his human-half.
    2. Saavik was Spock's prized student and he was her mentor, she cared about him. Of course she was sad when he died.
    3. The probe was a plot device.
    and so on.
     
  20. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    As in my sig. Every post. Spoonfed. ;)