"She can still outrun us, and outgun us."

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Praetor, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. mirandafave

    mirandafave Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^ Yeah that's what I would think too. Indeed portray in a fanfic of mine. The miranda has a look of being a pugalist, duking it out. The Connie is probably a bit too pretty for that kind of thing! :lol:
     
  2. StarryEyed

    StarryEyed Commodore Commodore

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    Don't see how a Constitution could outrun a Miranda at impulse when it has greater mass and much smaller impulse engines.

    The Reliant's roll bar sits right atop the nacelles which means those phaser canons are fed power from the same huge EPS ducts. Looks like way more phaser power than a Constitution to me.
     
  3. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But that's assuming the reactors involved produce the same amount of power. For all we know, the Reliant's reactor puts off a lot less power and therefore it's capable of a lesser speed despite the mass differences. Then again, for all we know it doesn't.
     
  4. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Smaller impulse engines? On what do you base that?
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Umm, visual comparison of the models? The structures surrounding the Reliant's glowy bits do seem significantly more extensive.

    Then again, size might not be everything, as there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between a Nebula and a Galaxy in maneuverability or speed (it's almost a plot point in "The Wounded", really) despite the massive difference in their impulse glowy-bit size.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Funny, because back of the impulse deck (openings) looks the be about the same size on both ships, as is the round structure with the round "crystal". In fact, the latter is closer to the back than on the Enterprise, with some of the details swapped around. The other stuff around it looks more like the hull structure than part of the impulse system, but the main components above seem similarly scaled.
     
  7. Aquehonga

    Aquehonga Fleet Captain

    Funny thing'bout Reliant.

    She was made up for TWOK.

    I was disappointed looking in Franz Josef's 70's SF Tech Manual & not finding Reliant anywhere in the manifest of Miranda Class ships.

    I'd thought, assumed really, TWOK's makers got the Reliant from that manual, along with the Miranda Class.

    Alas, I was wrong. Well, half-wrong. TWOK's PTB got the Miranda Class from Josef's TM. They just made up the ship Reliant for the film.

    That's :cool:

    Not that there's anything wrong with that.

    'Cause there ain't!
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Umm, what?

    There's no Miranda class in that Tech Manual. There are only five ship classes depicted - Saladin, Hermes, Ptolemy, Constitution and Federation. In addition, there are starship names listed next to these pictures, in multiple batches. Some fans take these batches to mean subtle variants of the ships depicted on the adjoining page, while others assume that the batches refer to completely dissimilar-looking starship classes that merely happen to fill the same function (say, all the batches listed on the page next to the Saladin picture would be destroyers, but they needn't look like the Saladin at all).

    The class name Miranda first pops up in the ST Chronology by the Okudas and Mirek, but supposedly it had been bandied about already back when the Reliant was designed for ST2. OTOH, the name Reliant was coined up long before this "villain ship" was actually designed - the older scrip versions essentially call for the Reliant to look like Kirk's TOS ship, as opposed to his TMP-modified one. Which just goes to show that the writers didn't consider FJ's old Tech Manual here, since the book doesn't feature a cruiser named Reliant among its list of names...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. ancient

    ancient Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the Mirandas were probably faster and more heavily armed. They could've been less expensive to run too (in terms of crew & resources).
     
  10. Aquehonga

    Aquehonga Fleet Captain

    My bad Timo:o

    Could'sworn Miranda Class was in there:(

    What was it, Ptolemy Class, that looks exactly like TWOK's Reliant:confused:

    Haven't looked at FJ's TM in years:o

    It's a great book:hugegrin:
     
  11. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ptolemy doesn't look 'just' like it... it has nacelles below from an ordinary TOS saucer, and a neck meant for connecting with container pods.
     
  12. Aquehonga

    Aquehonga Fleet Captain

    Praetor, I've never noticed any significant difference between Ptolemys & Mirandas.

    I'll take your & the other aficionados word for it though:vulcan:

    I wonder if Chekhov became captain of Reliant-A, or would it be Reliant II, the way Sulu became the Excelsior's captain?
     
  13. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry there, I realize that read a little hostile. No hostility meant.

    There have been TOSifications of the Miranda. The best one's called the Surya class, I think. I would imagine the new Reliant would just have a different registry number, rather than an 'A' or 'II'.

    I believe in the novels, Chekov became Sulu's first officer after TUC.

    It always struck me as odd that he was the only one of the TOS crew that actually seemed to move on with his career, other than Sulu later. (Of course, Sulu was supposed to be referenced as getting a command in TWOK to appease George Takei until it was cut out.)
     
  14. Aquehonga

    Aquehonga Fleet Captain

    ^, that Surya is a beautiful :cool: design.

    That cut Sulu scene from TWOK would've been nice.

    I wonder if Chekov lived to meet Geordi & O'Brien?

    It seems only 1701's, & maybe a few others, get A, B, C, D, E,....J entc ent al.
     
  15. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree. The one thing I might change is to actually have the pylons intersect the hull edge as on the Reliant to make a presumed 'refit' seem less... refit. :)

    Then again, from TOS to TMP the Enterprise pylon root location moved too, so it's not a big deal.

    Also agreed. What's funny is, IIRC the way George delivered it, he was afraid they would cut it so he tried to keep talking so fast they wouldn't want to cut it. When you watch the scene in the travel pod and he's saying 'Any chance to go aboard the Enterpise--' and appears to be cut off in mid-sentence? Well, apparently he was.

    Well, according to the novels Uhura lived long enough to meet Sisko. (She became head of Starfleet Intelligence.) Not sure about Chekov.

    There was an unofficial rule sort of like the rule about even numbers of warp engines (and it may have well been 'imposed' by Roddenberry himself) that the Enterprise should be the only ship to have that distinction.

    Technically, we've seen a canon violation of that - in 'Where Silence Has Lease' Riker gives the Yamato's registry as NCC-1305-E but it was later 'corrected' to NCC-71807 in 'Contagion.' Technically, the former was an alien reproduction and the latter the 'real' ship, but still. Read more here.
     
  16. Silversmok3

    Silversmok3 Commander Red Shirt

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    I believe Spock was speaking literally when he said Reliant could outrun and outgun Enterprise.

    So,why did Enterprise win the day?

    Ironically,in this fight Kirk had all the advantages.While Khan stole an ideal starship for his goals,he either failed to understand or ignored the sparcity of his crew.

    Yes,Enterprise took a severe beating in the first act.However,trainees or not,Kirk had a full staff of knowledgeable starfleet personell to restore whatever was damaged.

    Khan obviously did not.Once something gets shot out on Reliant,it was staying broken.Kirk could lose his engines and warp drive,and fix it all with enough time.When Khan lost his warp nacelle it was curtains-whats he gonna do,go to a fleet yard for a new one?

    Genetically engineered or not,there's no way you're gonna learn how to operate a starship that complex-and fix it-in the short time Khan had under battlefield conditions.

    Hence why a showdown in a Nebula was preferable to a fight in open space-one shot from Enterprise did more damage than 3 from the gun-toting Reliant.And huge engines don't matter when you're blind-where ya gonna run to?
     
  17. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think that's a pretty fair assessment.
     
  18. Wingsley

    Wingsley Commodore Commodore

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    The actual quote from the movie was "She can still outrun and outgun us".

    The "still" could simply be a contextual qualifier. That is to say, even with the repairs Spock was able to oversee while Kirk and party were underground, the Enterprise and Reliant were both still severely damaged vessels, and apparently the Enterprise took the worst damage of the two. Spock's remark could mean that Reliant was not as crippled as Enterprise. This would say nothing about the military appraisals of their respective starship classes.

    It was never clear to me what Reliant (and Saratoga after it) was supposed to be. A lighter cruiser than the Constitution-class ships? Some special type of limited-production Federation destroyer/warship? Or were certain ships like Reliant and Saratoga supposed to be mission-specific mods, fitted with special pods and other add-ons to fill specialized roles? (When the mission is over, they go back to starbase to be fitted for different missions)

    There were other things seemed odd. The roll-bar thingy seemed very un-TREK like to me. The design seemed to be very 80s, with too much surface detailing that reminded me of STAR WARS and SPACE: 1999 and the like. But that's just me.
     
  19. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wanna bet? ;)

    Hence, the purpose of my OP. I had always assumed this was the case, but was now reconsidering.

    I'd stir those options til blended for maximum correctness.

    Eh, it did have those two ginormous 'strips' on the dorsal real area. Other than that, I didn't think it was terribly Star Wars or Space:1999 derivative or cluttery boilerplate, and certainly no more 80s than the design of the Enterprise.
     
  20. USS Jack Riley

    USS Jack Riley Captain Captain

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    That is my take and what I tried (however poorly) to convey upthread. That despite Scotty's best efforts to get the ship back up and running at full strength, they were still underpowered in comparison to Reliant. Remember that Reliant had taken a few phaser hits while phaser lock was inoperative. Enterprise, on the other hand, had taken multiple phaser hits, with Reliant's phaser lock operational, not to mention a photon torpedo. She may have fended off Khan's surprise attack, but it was a pyrhic (I just KNOW I spelled that wrong) victory. Yes, Enterprise was okay for now, but Reliant was not destroyed in the counter attack.

    When Kirk beams back aboard and tried to use the turbolifts, Spock informs him that they aren't working below C deck (I believe). Kirk asks what is working and Spock replies something to the effect of, "Not much Admiral."

    Reliant was in better condition not because it was the better ship to begin with (when Khan first approached Enterprise and initiated the surprise attack), but because of the effects of the attack, for which Scotty was still trying to repair damage.

    Just my $0.02.
     

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