Sell me on Kes.

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Plomeek Broth, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ..............Lynx?! LYNX?!!! Where are you, sir, when we need you The Very Most™?!
     
  2. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'll add to that she was earnest, but she was a nice contrast to Neelix. Neelix, early Neelix, is very hyper, full of energy and when he's mad at the Captain, he's MAD AT THE CAPTAAAAAIN!!!. She was a calming influence on him. That was part of her healing and caring personality. I remember, very early on, that she has a discussion with Neelix about a decision Janeway made to enter a section of space to explore, and she basically spells out the difference in the two schools of thought on Voyager. She had a lot of small moments to shine. Jennifer Lien made a lot with the small part they had. They made her an interesting character (Grace, powerful, a healer, empathy without being syrupy--like a grown-up version of what Troi was supposed to be) and they often used her to give added meaning to the journey of the week.
     
  3. bbjegglebells

    bbjegglebells Admiral Admiral

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    Right here buddy.
    Every time someone hugs her, they're rubbing her back vagina.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Sold?
     
  4. Vandervecken

    Vandervecken Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You beat me to it. For that alone I'd say watch and enjoy Kes.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The problem wasn't the character. The character had enormous potential. The writers just couldn't seem to figure that out. I felt there were obvious opportunities for her character that they were missing, which is why I was so glad to get the chance to write Places of Exile in the Myriad Universes alternate-timelines miniseries and tell the version of Voyager that I always thought they should have made -- including letting Kes fulfill all the potential I saw in her.


    Well, kinda, but not in the way you probably mean. According to Memory Alpha, "Jennifer Lien was apparently sensitive to the make-up and adhesive used to apply her Ocampa ears. With the longer hairstyle, it was no longer necessary to apply the Ocampa ears each time she was filmed."
     
  6. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Which is why i said, the writers gave us a character that was a stinker

    Seems to me that there were two reasons why the writers failed to develop Kes

    1 - She was too closely associated with Neelix (something that i never really understood...you've got two, new alien species to introduce into the Trek universe and you make them a couple!) Had they just been friends, then the writers may have been compelled to write for both of them (rather than writing for Neelix and just having Kes stand next to him a lot)

    2 - They gave her magic brain powers (this meant they only had an interest in writing for her character when it involved doing some mind bendy type stuff) They crowbar this stuff in for a few episodes (she basically senses stuff & informs the captain)....they needed to look at her character development away from being the girl who can sense stuff....this definitely would've been much easier if she'd been separated from Neelix & free to develop relationships with other crew (especially Seska...wink wink, nudge nudge)

    I think Seska may have found a Kes exploring her confidence and sexuality equally breathtaking....they develop a friendship....Seska is curious about Ocampan relationships...Kes mentions their sexual physiology...each time Seska sees Kes, she gently strokes her back (the crew are oblivious to any of this) they're in Sandrines & everyone is chatting, playing pool....Seska is delicately caressing her back (it's their exciting little secret)
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    And I still don't agree with that way of putting it. They wrote the character in an appealing way, but just couldn't seem to figure out good stories for her. The problem was with plot, not characterization.


    Which is probably why they used "Warlord" as an excuse to break them up -- and why they kept them broken up afterward even though the breakup was Tieran's doing rather than Kes's.

    Although she did have significant relationships with characters other than Neelix -- principally the Doctor. She was the one who first treated the Doctor as a person rather than a program, the one who inspired him to become more than he was. And the Doctor quickly became a fan-favorite character. Kes also had a close relationship with Tuvok as her mentor, a surrogate-daughter thing with Janeway, an unrequited crush from Tom Paris, etc.

    I did often think it would be interesting to see her interact more with B'Elanna -- that combination was rarely touched on. One of my first pitches to the show was a Kes-B'Elanna focus story. I know Greg Cox had the same idea when he wrote his novel The Black Shore, which pairs those two characters off.


    That didn't hurt Tuvok, though.
     
  8. WillsBabe

    WillsBabe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Kes was a really "blah" character for me for years. Recently, though I've been watching a few episodes of Voyager and I've been surprised how much I've warmed to Kes.
     
  9. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You can't create good stories unless you've got a character that inspires you to write good stories....she wasn't developed into anyone interesting enough to deserve good stories and that was the problem. No amount of plot can compensate for poorly conceived and poorly developed characters

    You might might think that it was simply the case that she lacked good stories but i think most people would disagree with that assessment....before i can invest in her stories, i need to give a damn about who she is....and i simply never did

    But most of those interactions were about Kes facilitating the development of other characters....they weren't really about her development....the doctor is a real boy....Janeway is mummy....Tuvok is a wise Vulcan...Tom is a bad boy who will clash with Neelix but then build a friendship with him etc etc

    but who is Kes?....i don't really know....she's that nice girl who...erm....yeah...walks the corridors being nice & stuff

    No.....it hurt Kes (the position of annoying mind bendy character has been filled)
     
  10. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

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    Bingo. Kes was largely a device in the service of the other main characters who implicitly mattered more. She was cursed with otherness and never fully integrated into the cast of characters. All along the elephant in the room was the hint that her involvement on the ship was going to be temporary. Same goes with Neelix, and, big surprise*, he never left the Delta Quadrant either.


    * - sarcasm.
     
  11. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I find Kes a great character, one of the best in Star Trek.

    Kes really personifies the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore. She's beautiful and nice yes, but also strong-willed, determined, brave and curious. She has a way to solve problems by simply go around them and attack them from another angle, something which could be seen in "Resolutions" and "Jetrels", thus winning arguments and finding solutions. She's actually both a contrast and a complement to more typical female action characters like Janeway, Torres and Seven.

    Add to this some interesting mental abilities and we have a great character who really contributed to the Voyager story.

    Jennifer Lien did a great job in portraying Kes. She really gave life to the character.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    If you are short on cash, and can only afford one happy meal from McDonalds, she can survive on eating dirt.

    Think of all the money you won't have to waste taking this woman to the many fancy dinners for anniversaries, birthdays and whatnot if she's happy with a side order of soil and compost?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  13. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A double cheeseburger is only 2 dollars now and if you have a kid with you they will give you free water but only in a half filled small paper cup.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    "I WANT THE TOY! I WANT THE TOY! GIVE ME THE DAMN TOY!"

    Your children are so old that you blocked out those memories?

    Happymeal = $6 = 3 cheeseburgers.

    As long as they are sill "children" they will always go for the toy.

    A teenager, will take the money for a happymeal, buy a small Fanta, and keep the change.

    Besides, I'm medium old and in my heart of hearts I think that cheese burgers should be 95 cents like they were when I was growing up.

    Besides, my problem is not the increasing cost of McDonalds as much as it is the increasing number of nephews and nieces I have.

    Feeding 3, sometimes 4 of them at that evil eatery is just ridiculous.
     
  15. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You can buy the toy separately for like a dollar fifty. This means if the toy IS cool (which hasn't happened for ages) you buy whatever ones you want and the cheese burger but if the toy isn't cool you just buy the food. Some of the toys are so shit that no one over 5 actually wants them. And they used to have 50 cent cheeseburger tuesdays here, that was awesome.. but the small change menu is still pretty great since the 2 dollar double cheeseburger has 2 patties so is almost as good as your 95 cents for one patty.
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    You're forgetting, you're talking to someone who was inspired to write a story about her, Places of Exile -- and not to blow my own horn, but I've heard from a lot of people who thought that it was a good story. Kes was a fantastic character. Someone who lives only nine years, who wasn't willing to waste her brief life in a safe, dull environment but who craved discovery and adventure -- that should have been a great character, someone who lived at hyperspeed and eagerly devoured every new experience. There was immense potential there that was left lying fallow.

    I mean, this is Voyager we're talking about. The show is all about wasted potential. There were so very many opportunities the show could have taken but either wasn't allowed to by the network or just wasn't ambitious enough to pursue. This has been a source of frustration to many viewers over the years -- which is part of why Places of Exile, a novel that was all about embracing those missed opportunities, has been so well-received by fans. (Also the Distant Shores anthology, which was also written with the goal of fulfilling missed opportunities from the show.)

    So the writers' failure to make the most of their characters and premise wasn't due to lack of interesting potential in those characters or that premise. There was a ton of potential that many fans and writers saw, but that the show just wasn't able or willing to embrace. Kes was just one facet of that.
     
  17. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I bet Neelix never touches her back like that. I bet he jovially thumps her there when he's talking about himself.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't know that you could buy the toys separately, or is it that you can't buy the toys separately here, but the youngest child I have to "manage" is almost 8, so he is almost at the stage where I can says 'Wouldn't you rather have a big Mac?"

    Deluxe Cheese burgers for $2? Pull the other one. Maybe as a limited offer special, but I find it hard to consider it possible to find a one patty vareity of cheese burger on the 2 dollar menu.

    (Yes, I know our different money is only "almost" the same.)

    Christopher...

    In your opinion, did you think that Kes briefly went home inbetween Caretaker and Paralax?

    On one hand Kes might have wanted to get some old clothes she was still keeping at her mums house, knick naks, old books, you know the sort of stuff we all leave at our parents house because it's not entirely essential to leaving home but by Jupiter no bugger is putting my Star Wars toys to the curb on trash day!

    On the other hand, they were scard of the kazon and running from the kazon, and it was certain death from the kazon to head back towards Ocampa.
     
  19. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "Kes ... personifies the spirit of Star Trek." Wow. Plomeek Broth, try to skim past the Kes criticisms and talk of eating dirt and happy meals, to get to what people like Lynx and Christopher, who know Kes so well, are trying to let you in on. And it's not like Jennifer Lien let the show down, by playing Kes, as these gentlemen and others have indicated. Those making VOYAGER let Jennifer down. But Kes still manages to capture the essence of what STAR TREK is all about. I know I'm getting an education on Kes, in this thread, that I wasn't expecting. And to see those who know the character best expressing their support for her so eloquently, really makes me feel good about enjoying Jennifer Lien's performance and the character of Kes. I think she's wonderful!
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If her reproductive organs are in/on her back, then maybe she's like a Ken doll in her crotchal area, which means that it's perfectly fine to slap her jovially down there?