Sell me on Kes.

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Plomeek Broth, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Really? Those awful lesbians ruining our Trek. Oh, for the days of manly men and ripped shirts of yore, where Kirk and Spock could be stripped, whipped, and sweaty together in a cell.
     
  2. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    CBS/Paramount decided not to include gay characters in STAR TREK. We get what they give us ... I have no control over that!
     
  3. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Uh huh...
     
  4. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As a matter of fact, I have never understood the tendency to turn characters into something they truly aren't.

    OK, I've toyed with a short story in which all the main characters of Voyager are turned into Iron Maiden fans and where each situation they encounter makes certain characters think about or quote something from an Iron Maiden song, like:

    Paris managed to avoid the Kazon torpedoes, only thanks to his quick thinking and quick reaction. The ship turned and dived just in time to avoid a phase beam from another Kazon cruiser. It was just like in the Iron Maiden song "Aces High". "Run, fly to live, live to fly, do or die".

    Or: While Kes was heading for sickbay, she was thinking about a song by Iron Maiden which she had been listening to last evening. The name of the poem was "Rime Of The Ancient Marine" and now she couldn't get rid of the tune she had in her head. The song did remind her of their own situation, lost in space. And so on.....

    But that's only me! :techman:
     
  5. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Roddenberry said everyone is bisexual in the future.

    I bow to his wisdom as CREATOR of da Trek.

    Just because a series bible detailing characters doesn't say "character is gay" or "character is bisexual" doesn't mean they aren't. Did these descriptions say "character is heterosexual"? I highly doubt it. IF it didn't say "character is heterosexual" then there's no locking that character into that orientation, or any orientation.

    IF we can say "female character seemed friendly with male character, their might have been an attraction there even though the story didn't go that way" SO CASUALLY without people feeling the need to point out that "it's not in the script" we can SURELY say this about characters of the same gender in the same kind of interaction. That people object to it not being in the script when it is a same sex speculation but are fine about these possible attractions when it is a male and female says a lot. And what it is saying is not very nice.
     
  6. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    They're fictional. That's why Kes can come back a murdering psycho.
     
  7. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We all have such wide, varied opinions on STAR TREK and its characters and storylines, do we not? Surak, himself, once stated this and now, I'm saying it, too:

    "I am pleased to see we have differences."
     
  8. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I am NOT pleased by your homophobic blatherings 2takes which are offensive and quite likely hurtful to some people reading this. You are not the voice of Vulcan diversity.
     
  9. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Honestly, I think that it is stretching it a bit too far.

    Gov Kodos wrote:
    Fictional, yes. But there are certain parameters for all fictional characters, no matter what. You simply don't turn Picard into an alcoholic , Spock into a laughing, bullying maniac or Riker into a pedophile or something like that because they aren't supposed to be that way.

    The "Kes" coming back as a psycho is simply bad writing and a scenario made up for very dubious reasons. It was more a case of showing the finger to a group of fans than coming up with something constructive for the ongoing Voyager story.
     
  10. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "Homophobic" is a bit harsh and does not describe me, one iota. Kes was presented as heterosexual. I prefer leaving her so ... your opinion varies. That's all. It's no big deal. It certainly doesn't have to be.
     
  11. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I must say that labeling a poster "homophobic" just because the poster don't want to see certain Star Trek characters turned into something they aren't supposed to be is actually insulting. That's the kind of rigid political correctness that always makes me go for the gun.

    As I wrote before, those who want lesbian or homosexual characters in a Trek series will have to wait for the next possible series or invent new characters who are lesbian or homosexual for some fanfiction. But leave the existing characters alone.
     
  12. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why? It's just making it all equal. How do we know what orientation a character has and how set in stone it is if they never state it? We don't. Sure we could say "Janeway was engaged and seems to like men" but that doesn't mean she isn't also experimental, or wouldn't feel attractions to women. In the real non-Star Trek world people find themselves with a more fluid sexuality than they thought they had all the time. They might think they are really more inclined towards being het or gay but acknowledge that certain people do turn their heads and that their preferences aren't set in stone. This is real life, there's no reason to not think that Star Trek characters would also have this fluid sexuality, especially as there's no cultural or social pressures growing up not to.
     
  13. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    That's what makes it dramatic, having characters in new perspectives. Picard as alcoholic? Sure, in the wake of that Cardasian torture it would be a great story arc. Kes as a psycho? Why not? She went through an unheard of physical transformation. Sounds reasonable that she might not have been able to handle it mentally.

    Kes was an alien. Besides, humans have a very ambiguous sexuality that the terms heterosexual and homosexual don't even begin to encompass.
     
  14. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    That's a very ugly way of putting it. Maybe you want to rephrase it?
     
  15. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would much rather talk about the beautiful, sweet and always fresh Kes and the woman who starred as her. Jennifer Lien was exceptionally lovely, for her day. I'm very surprised she didn't do more in Hollywood, because being beautiful is all it takes to get really far in Tinsle Town ...
     
  16. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    2takes continual expressions of distaste and declarations such as,
    make it pretty clear this isn't about Kes.

    And no, I will not "leave existing characters alone" unless you can point to me a place in a series bible done as a writer guideline that says "this character is heterosexual". Being heterosexual is NOT a default and it should not be a default. If an orientation has not been stated I'm going to assume we do not know the full span of that character's sexuality and that we can speculate as we wish.

    As I said before that it is fine with some people to speculate for heterosexual attractions that never became canon but not fine to speculate for gay attractions says they do see heterosexuality as the default and that's problematic, especially when you actually tell me leave characters alone.
     
  17. { Emilia }

    { Emilia } Feminazgul Moderator

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    She was introduced to us as being in a relationship with a man which makes her either heterosexual or bisexual.
    I'm not sure why her having a relationship with a woman later on would in any way, shape or form "change" that premise.

    Picard might be bisexual, too. Who knows, really.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    teacake's very passionate about her opinions, that's all. She's only Human. :)
     
  19. Ancient Mariner

    Ancient Mariner Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sooo .... if she were portrayed as a lesbian, or a bisexual, she would no longer be beautiful, sweet or always fresh?

    :lol:

    No.
     
  20. { Emilia }

    { Emilia } Feminazgul Moderator

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    If by passionate you mean that she's right... then yes.