Section 31...

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by 2 of 10, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. superstring01

    superstring01 Commander Red Shirt

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    That job was too messy for Section 31. Section 31 is clean and, for better or worse, wanted some sort of UFP dominated peace.

    The explosion of Praxis that brought about the peace is more like a Section 31 job, not the botched and mangled job that attempted to undo the peace.

    ~String
     
  2. flandry84

    flandry84 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've always thought that Capt.Ben Maxwell was acting on info supplied by 31.Trouble is,now that we the audience know of their existence,it is tempting to retro-fit them into too many happenings in the Trek world.



    Funnily,somebody mentioned Government oversight on various real-world intel agencies....then somebody else mentioned the outsourcing of torture etc.
    Hard to square that circle,isn't it?
     
  3. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Not exactly. While talking to his Section 31 friend, Reed makes vague referances to "your section" always with an emphasis on section. And the operative did tell Archer to look up Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter to learn more about him.

    They are referred to as Section 31 by name in startrek.com's production reports for Demons and Terra Prime.
     
  4. Sheliak

    Sheliak Commodore Commodore

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    Who were the Tal Shiar in Ancient Rome? ;)
     
  5. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Cheers for the info


    From the Memory Alpha article- http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31

    Interesting
     
  6. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    The Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency are answerable to the President of the United States and to special Congressional oversight committees that also control their budgets.

    Hardly the same thing as Section 31, which is essentially an organized crime organization that uses patriotism to justify its criminal actions.
     
  7. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was always under the impression that Maxwell was totally freelancing. He probably noticed something in Cardassian troop movements or got sensor readings--all by his little lonesome. ;)
     
  8. Sheliak

    Sheliak Commodore Commodore

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    Perhaps.
     
  9. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Dude was paranoid. If it hadn't actually BEEN staring him in the face when he went looking for it, he probably would've manufactured it.

    But as we know, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
     
  10. Strider

    Strider Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah but look at the alternative. The writers of Deep Space Nine were looking to inject the morally perfect Federation of The Next Generation with some reality in a way that creatively didn't compromise what had already been established. Thus, with Section 31 we learn that the supposed necessary evils of building and maintaining an empire are done quietly, often with the collusion of Starfleet officers and officials. It's a decent work around in my opinion, at least for a tv show.
     
  11. Phily B

    Phily B Commodore Commodore

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    The idea of S31 always fascinated me. I always wondered what Sisko would've done if it was S31 he approached/worked with instead of Garak in ITPM. I think when you talk about Admiral Ross and the like, thats a good way to look at S31 and how they manipulate Starfleet.
     
  12. T'Cal

    T'Cal Commodore Commodore

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    Knowing what we know now, perhaps S31 chose Maxwell because they knew of his personal history. What with murder of his family during the war, he would be easy to manipulate into starting the confrontation with the Cardassian Union, something S31 wanted. He unknowingly worked for them.
     
  13. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The weird thing about Section 31 is, if all the novels are to be taken as part of one's personal canon, that means that for a secret organization, they've been pret-ty damn loud. The Enterprise Incident and TUC come to mind. My only complaint about Section 31 is that a lot of negative things that the Federation or Starfleet has EVER done on screen is now retroactively accredited to the group, which suggests a very haphazard leadership.

    Heck, if we didn't see Kirk and Co. steal the Enterprise, novelists would have probably blamed that one on Section 31 as well.
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Really, the Section's agenda would imply that the positive things we see onscreen are their doing, and the negative ones are what the Section was established to fight against...

    S31 agents would probably have been hard at work to undermine the coup of ST6:TUC, for example, as they were primarily out to protect Federation integrity (at least insofar as the Federation's public image goes). They might have liked the idea of a decisive war with Klingons, but they would definitely have wanted it to take place in a way that left the Feds smelling like a whole forest of roses.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Not really. Cloak by SD Perry is ambiguous on whether or not it was Section 31's idea for the Enterprise to steal a cloaking device from the Romulans; the only thing that's firmly established is that they later took that cloaking device and used it to conduct secretive experiments into the Omega Particle.

    Nothing has been established in the novels linking Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and Section 31 other than that Admiral Cartwright was probably a member of Section 31. But that doesn't mean that they were in on the Khitomer Conspiracy. Doesn't mean they weren't, either; we simply have no data on it other than that Cartwright was involved with Section 31 in the 2260s.

    Again, not really. The only thing that the novels have specifically cited as being Section 31 retroactively is the Bak'u incident from Star Trek: Insurrection and the "death" of Trip Tucker from "These Are the Voyages...."
     
  16. LutherSloan

    LutherSloan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think S31 was any way involved with the Ben Maxwell incident. He was just nuts.
     
  17. Sector 7

    Sector 7 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In that case, I consider the incident settled. Luther Sloan would never lie. :cardie:
     
  18. msbae

    msbae Commodore

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    The Praetorian Guard, perhaps?
     
  19. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

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    About Article 14, Section 31.

    Can we assume, then, that Article 14 in general concerns the Intellegence branch?

    Hmm...also, Sloan said something about the original Starfleet charter. I wonder if the later drafts...had only 30 sections...in Article 14....:evil:
     
  20. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    In "Inquisition," Sloan said that Section 31 was part of the original Starfleet Charter, implying the existence of multiple Starfleet Charters.

    Sure enough, ENT came along and established that there are two Starfleets: The United Earth Starfleet of ENT's era, and the Federation Starfleet of the TOS/TNG eras. In other words, Section 31 is citing as its legal justification for its existence a charter that is no longer in effect, that could no more be in effect for the Federation Starfleet than the British Royal Navy Charter could be in effect for the United States Navy.

    Further, Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter was only ever established to allow "certain rules" to be bent during times of extraordinary crisis. That's a far, far cry from the establishment of an organization that is given permanent carte blanche to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, however it wants, and be answerable to no one.

    I think it's pretty clear that Section 31 has no legal justification for its own existence, and that the justifications it has cited as as full of shit as the so-called legal reasonings produced by the Bush Administration to justify torturing enemy combatants.