Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by JJ-R, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    The physical elements might have been correct in their proportions, but these elements could be distorted on computers. This happens frequently with models where photoshoppers distort the Human form.

    This distortion is visible in the screen shot. The deck pieces have been extended. In the original SD shot, the edges of the pieces fall within the beam. In the new shot, the edges of the pieces, especially for Deck 5, considerably falls outside the beam. The beam is the width of the hole.

    Another thing missing is the green tractor beam from the Borg ship. If they are honoring the original intentions of the artistic team, why did they then remove this beam? It established that the Enterprise was helpless as a section of its hull was removed.

    http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s2/2x16/qwho170.jpg

    As for the cutting beam, it was used to cut the hull to a certain depth. When the beam had completed its task, the beam was turned off and a grappling beam was then turned on to take a sample of the starship's hull.

    Personally, I felt that the portrayed segment was smaller than dialog indicated, and that there was no effort made to depict the crew people who were trapped in that segment.

    Worf: "Coming in, sir. Sections twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine on decks four, five, and six destroyed."
    Picard: "Casualties?"
    Worf: "Eighteen were in those sectors and are missing."

    In my mind, I imagine a larger section of the hull removed, with people trapped. I] think this could have been depicted with small models of Humans in the section.
     
  2. Ghostface1701

    Ghostface1701 Commander Red Shirt

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    What's more likely - that they resized one particular element of the shot, that was part of the same original model, or the beam (not the cutting beam, you're right) doesn't cover the whole piece in this frame?

    "When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
     
  3. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We can still see a trace of the green beam, but it's not nearly as pronounced as it was.
     
  4. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    Well, for me, when the people involved in this project, keep hammering to us that they are honoring the original intention, then I expect that intention to be honored. I can respect changes to fix continuity errors. However, when I see a situation wherein we, the viewers, are placed in a location that is within a green tractor beam, and that beam creates a green 'curtain' which creates a barrier between space and the space inside that beam, then I expect the same effect in the HD edition - only more clearer and intense.

    In this shot, I can see the hull reflecting the radiant radiation produced by the beam. In the new shot, the hull is not reflecting the light. Furthermore, in this shot, it can be seen that the beam surrounds the segment of the hull. (I used a piece of paper with a straight edge to see if anything lay outside that beam - the answer was no.) I did the same test with the new shot. Portions of Decks 4 and 5 fall outside the beam. If I can do this test, using what was available at hand, why couldn't they do it at HTV Illuminate?

    http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s2/2x16/qwho172.jpg
     
  5. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    Man this thread is making me feel dumb. I see both Measure of a Man and the Q Who shots and think they don't look too bad. Then the responses are borderline overreactionary, at least from my perspective. I guess I just don't see what is so "atrociously bad" about either shot. :(
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Problem is how they look when compared with the other seasons. I was on the fence about the look when I went to the theatrical premiere last night. But when you compare the season three teaser to the actual episodes, the season three work is just jaw-dropping. As was season one.

    Digital Bits gave the video quality of season one an 'A' grade, season two received a 'B-'.
     
  7. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    Really, it doesn't bother me too much. It's pretty minor (and even at times major) niggling things like the window lights not matching the ports on the model, etc. But, overall, I think it looks a heck of a lot better than the SD, VHS-quality DVD versions do. I think I'll survive with some misplaced widow lights and part of a missing tractor beam.
     
  8. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    True, but when the complaints are something along the lines of the lights aren't properly aligned, or whatever (What was wrong with the Q Who shot again?), I do think that's overreactionary. I've seen some of the more obvious blunders already (Still think after last night's screening the exterior shots of the Enterprise looked way too white), but it's the less obvious things I'm shaking my head at.
     
  9. NewHorizon

    NewHorizon Captain Captain

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    Well, in my opinion, HTV served up the Micky-D's Big Mac of Next Gen Remastering...whereas CBS served up a gourmet burger.

    To some, a burger is just a burger, but to others the difference is painfully obvious.
     
  10. trekker670

    trekker670 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Please, let's hope not...
     
  11. throwback

    throwback Captain Captain

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    I am not happy with what I have seen, but this is not stopping me from buying the set. My wish is that CBS had done more research into HTV Illuminate, and come to a determination that this company has proven itself not to be a leader in restoration.

    I don't expect professional critics to be accurate in their reviews. Last year, I purchased Skyrim based on critics reviews. Not many of them mentioned that this game was seriously flawed with a lengthy list of bugs. Some of these critics awarded this game with Game of the Year accolades. By August of this year, the game developers had to release seven patches to fix the original game and to fix issues associated with the DLCs.

    I don't what it is, but these entertainment companies, to me, seem to rely on the apathy of people who won't complain about their products when there are so few other choices. I favor being vocal, or otherwise we, as purchasers, will have to accept that what we buy will many times be sub-par.
     
  12. Mott the barber

    Mott the barber Commodore Commodore

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    I'd have to agree with you. Look guys, I saw the screening last night and I like to think I have a pretty good eye for some of this stuff. But youre really not going to notice a 2 second flyby shot of the ship and the misaligned composite. I was watching on a giant screen and did not see it even as I was staring at the ship crawl across the screen.

    However, and I completely agree with Tomalok...the shipmitself was way too washed out and bright, especially when compared to s1 and the s3 trailer. The over bright ship added to the effect of making the ship seem like it was pasted on top as opposed tom within the scene in the compositing. Honestly, if they would just match the ship lighting to s1, I really wouldn't have noticed any of the other stuff in motion, and I highly doubt most of you would have either.
     
  13. Mott the barber

    Mott the barber Commodore Commodore

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    I will say this, however, the new interior Borg shot looked excellent, especially with the addition of some moving drones on some of the other levels of the cube. :eek:
     
  14. Phily B

    Phily B Commodore Commodore

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    It looks worse in motion for once, but he is transparent.
     
  15. Phily B

    Phily B Commodore Commodore

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    I think it mostly looks excellent, I wouldn't have noticed most of it if I hadn't read this thread.
     
  16. Joe_Atari

    Joe_Atari Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Agreed, but as I mentioned, CBS would not have to start from scratch. In the case of CBS-D the infrastructure for the project is already in place from S1 and S3 (and hopefully further seasons), much of which is unique to this project, DS9, and VOY. The elements for S2 have been scanned and the shot lists have been compiled. The audio seems fine this time around. That leaves replacing only the problematic HTV visual material.

    From what I can gather, the flaws in HTV's work seem to fall into 4 main categories:

    1. Misaligned motion control passes and visible matte lines
    2. Lighting and shading mismatches on miniature elements
    3. Poor-quality / low-res starfields and other digital elements (mainly planets, but including that horrid probe launch CG Enterprise from "Where Silence Has Lease")
    4. Excessive DNR, mainly in miniature shots

    From what I understand the live-action VFX comps (hand phasers, viewscreens, etc.) for S2 are generally well done (with the exception of one dodgy bluescreen window shot from "The Measure of a Man" mentioned earlier). So assuming there are not excessive DNR issues with the live-action footage (haven't read about any yet), that pretty much leaves the space / ship shots (and not ALL of them by any means either). Someone would have to chime in with how many minutes of the total running time of S2 (15 hours or so) are taken up by such shots, but I'm guessing it's not a lot, and there's lots of repetition. Next, consider how many of those flawed elements could be quickly replaced by elements already done better by CBS-D. Roughly how many minutes would we be talking about? How much work? Certainly nothing like completely recompositing the entire season, or even a two hour feature with extensive VFX. For the sake of brevity I'm oversimplifying a bit (there may be complications from procedural, maybe even software / equipment differences between CBS-D and HTV for example), but that's essentially it.

    In any case, I was really referring to the business considerations, which as I'm sure you know are quite different from a feature to a television project and this one in particular. The feature films I mentioned were examples of studios remastering product that they really didn't have to. The benefit to the studios from re-releasing these titles was to sell additional units and generate some positive press in the process (and I see only thumbs up when a studio does this sort of thing; those that care are just glad to have an improved product and ultimately couldn't care less about a recall are trade-in program). The primary market for the TNG-R project is TV syndication. As has been mentioned many times, the revenues from the BD release are gravy; the real money will come from selling TNG in HD in syndication for years to come.

    I think CBS has learned (or will soon learn) its lesson from its experience with HTV and will better vet the post houses that are used going forward, hopefully choosing ones with VFX experience. Lost BD sales aside, I don't think the bosses want 6 great looking seasons of their "flagship" Trek series (thanks Marina! ;)) and one substandard one. It is really in their best business interests that the overall package look as good as is practical. I also know for a fact that there are some "movie people" at Fox that dictated the re-releases of "The French Connection" and "Patton", stating in the case of the latter that they learned their lesson on the excessive application of DNR and that it would not happen again; the re-release confirms this (and I hope they do the same for Predator!). I'd like to think there are some of these same type of people at CBS; if not we might be watching SD upconverts instead of a completely recomposited series. Of course I'm glad we're not!

    The question really is, would goodwill, positive press, concern for quality, pride in the franchise, and lastly recovered lost BD sales (starting with my own) outweigh the variable costs involved in recompositing / replacing the xx minutes of S2 that really need it. I think it might, but the bosses may need some prodding. By no means do I think it will happen next week or even next year, but my hope is that they revise the overly ambitious TNG-R release schedule to allow CBS-D to do the whole run (and allow for greater consistency from season to season), or hire outside (and even CBS-D is outside really; "in-house" is a misnomer since they're their own profit center, etc.) facilities that are a better fit for the project. Oh yeah, hold the project managers accountable for quality control and replace them if necessary. With all due respect, if that's the Okudas, then so be it.

    If it happens I definitely see it happening during some sort of hiatus for the facility in question. For example, say CBS-D does S7, perhaps they could squeeze an S2 redo between that and a possible DS9-R project. Also, as I said higher-quality re-releases are typically well-received; whether the re-release is done with a recall, mail-in replacement, trade-in, or full repurchase would depend on the timing. And at the risk of incurring the wrath of the "it's good enough" crowd, it just sends completely the wrong message to spend money on an inferior product to begin with. BillJ mentioned he was unhappy with what he's seen but he's buying S2 to "support the project"; I simply cannot understand this. Even if the project needed our "support" (it doesn't), it's happening, again, for business reasons. Especially given the circumstances with HTV there's no way CBS would abandon the project if S2s sales suffered. Of course, if you're happy with S2 as it is now, I respect your opinion; by all means buy it and enjoy it. S2 is one of my favorite seasons of TNG (it and S1 have a special place with me) and the extras do look amazing (kudos to Burnett and his team on those), so it will pain me to pass on this release. Instead I'll be picking up the TOS score box set on Monday (at over 3 times the price of S2 but that's where my Trek money's going next week). Why on earth anyone would buy S2 if they know they're not going to be happy with it completely eludes me. For myself, I'll buy S2 when they re-remaster it, even if it's months or years down the road. I've waited this long, right? If it's never done I'll survive, knowing I didn't support a shoddy product.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012
  17. jimbotron

    jimbotron Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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  18. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice this. If anyone can do a screencap comparison of just an exterior shot of the Enterprise between the two seasons, that might help show what I mean here. I think the best comparison might be the shot from 11001001 with the Enterprise heading towards Spacedock, to the shot of the Enterprise firing at the Borg ship in Q Who. The only comparison I got last night was noticing how much more darker (In a clear sense of the term) things looked on the season 3 trailer.

    Hell, if there is one thing I have noticed about the Q who shot is it seems like HTV in their "remastering" got the "color" all wrong. I wanted the show in HD, but I still wanted the Borg tractor beam to be bright green. If there was one thing I noticed in the screenshot posted above (And the problem people should be having with it) it is the color is all wrong.

    I think I've decided while everyone else is looking at the visual effects and calling out HTV on them, I'm going to call them out on getting the colors wrong. That's not keeping with the same intent as the original.
     
  19. trekker670

    trekker670 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I agree, with the exception of when the lighting pass "floats" around on the ship. There was at least one shot that I noticed where the Enterprise was moving left to right (I believe it was in MoaM) and the light pass followed it, but was moving at a different rate causing the glow from the nacelles to move around on the ship (sometimes ahead halfway up the bussard collectors, sometimes behind into the body of the nacelle)
     
  20. Salinga

    Salinga Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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