Scotty and his military comment

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Charles Phipps, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have, in fact, already named three such organizations:

    The Japanese Self Defense Force
    The Chinese Coast Guard (as an example of MANY non-military coast guards)
    Earth Starfleet

    Assuming they even have one, it would be filled by several organizations that I have, again, already mentioned, such as (but not limited to)
    The Federation Naval Patrol.
    The Andorian Royal Guard
    The Military Assault Command Organization.

    Starfleet IS a peacekeeping force. It is also not a military organization.

    I never said that didn't. In fact, I pretty explicitly said that DID provide military functions even at a time when their organizations was unquestionably non-military in nature.
     
  2. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Significantly, it is also THEIR interpretation of their constitution.

    So did I when we were stationed in Yokosuka. One thing that became clear in a short amount of time was that
    1) Japanese people really DO NOT like the concept of a standing military and
    2) They feel they do not NEED a military as long as the United States is hanging around.

    The SDF is a de facto military by American/English standards of the terms; the Japanese terminology referring to it and its members considers them to be civil servants and employees of the government and they explicitly avoid talking about the SDF in any terms that would be applicable to a military.

    A MILITARY is illegal. A self defense force is not.
     
  3. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In addition to being factually incorrect (seeing how the United States has just spent the last ten years fighting two different wars against non-military combatants) it also remains the case that 22nd century Earth Starfleet was a non-military organization that acted in a military role.

    It's a definition you prefer. That does not make it current, or even accurate.
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I believe Trek referenced Japan with the Klingons. In ENT/TOS they had the Imperial Klingon Fleet, and in TNG/DS9 they have the Klingon Defence Force.
     
  5. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

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    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    Did you just say that you have met members of the Japanese military and yet they don't exist? Hmmm . . . so even seeing isn't believing for you is it?

    Japan has a military. The Self Defense Force is capable of national defense and thus meets the oft cited definition of a standing military or armed force. BAMMMM!!!!

    I never thought you would go ahead and prove my argument for me but . . . thanks Ed. You're the best!!! :)

    As the board is in English we have been using the English definition of military since . . . . you know . . . "military" is an english word. When you use the Japanese term for "military" its not really the word "military" now is it??? :guffaw:

    Please feel free to redirect the discussion of words in other languages that have no direct translation to english if you would like. Just let everyone know the standard you are using for future discussions. ;)
     
  6. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

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    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    In a previous post I gave you four definitions of the term military from 4 separate sources which you conveniently ignored.
    Tell you what, Websters defines "military" as
    Definition of MILITARY
    1: military persons; especially : army officers
    2: armed forces

    Its common knowledge that Starfleet vessels are armed.

    On top of that they use their weapons in combat against threats and on orders from the Federation.

    Clearly they are an armed force under Federation control.
    Hence they are the epitomy of the definition of a military for the Federation.

    Game, point, match.

    Making up your own definitions is not a valid method for continuing a discussion (neither is making comparisons that are either wrong or have no comparative value). Either you can find something to support your contention that everyone on this board (besides yourself obviously) seems to misuse and not understand the true meaning of the term "military" or this argument has just about run its course.
     
  7. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

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    Why is every argument on here devolve into 1 vs (at least) four?

    Starfleet is military, there is little to no proof otherwise. Seriously, this debate is getting no where.
     
  8. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

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    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    Perhaps 1 vs 4 is the universally recognized equilibrium ratio for Star Trek arguments?

    This wouldn't eliminate the opportunity of having a 2 vs 8 or 3 vs 12 type argument. ;)
     
  9. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

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    Kruezer's Law of TrekBBS: All debates on Trek will, at it's source, be based on a 1:4 ratio in regards to participants.

    It just annoys me that people completely disregard proof from almost fifty years of television and film to further their own agenda. Jesus H. Christ Almighty.
     
  10. OneBuckFilms

    OneBuckFilms Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Japanese Defense Force is a military organization. Fact.
    The Coast Guard is effectively an estention of border patrol and rescue. It is involved only in civilian law enforcement (drugs, etc.), not operations of general armed defense. So it does not meet the criteria.
    The Chinese Coast Guard, like other coast guards, do not provide defense against invasion, or large-scale military attacks. Not do/can they engage in operations beyond partolling Japanese borders. They are not a mobile force the way the Army, Navy or Air Force are, and deal with civilian law enforcement and search/rescue operations at sea within Japanese waters. They do not meet the criteria for all the roles a military organisation would play.
    I will not comment on Earth Starfleet, as that ground has been covered. It's inclusion is an assertion, not a valid analogous example.
    MACO are clearly another military organisation, one that seems analogous to the SEALS. But their focus is narrow, not more general defense.
    The Andorial Royal Guard is not under command of the Federation, but are a sovereign military power of a member planet. They do not meet the criteria.
    The Federation Naval Patrol seems to be limited in scope, and I'm not sure I've ever seen them called upon by the Federation to defent against say, the Borg.

    These organisations likely contribute on many occasions, but from the evidence I've seen, it is Starfleet that is called upon to perform major military functions.
    Asertion with no impirical supporting evidence.
    Then what is your cirteria? Define a military organisation. What traits/activities must an organisation have to be considered military in your eyes?

    To my eyes, "unquestionably" is becoming a questionable proposition, considering that is can only really be applied to the 22nd Century with any credibility.
     
  11. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

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    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    To piggie back on what OneBuckFilms says I'm really surprised no one has questioned why police are not considered military since they are also (obviously) an armed force.

    Not to go into any detail but that goes back to the laws of armed conflict that exempts certain paramilitary organizations from being designated as being part a state's "armed forces". However there is nothing in the Geneva or Hague conventions that would exempt an organization like Starfleet from being considered an "Armed Force". They meet all the criteria hands down to be labeled an armed force and hence, by definition, military.

    But I digress.
     
  12. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, I said I met members of the Japanese self defense force and they have said they do not consider themselves to be part of a military organization.

    Please read more carefully in the future.

    Which has multiple implications as to legal status and national authority. A non-military organization that participates in a war REMAINS a non-military organization because "participates in war" is not the working definition of "military." That is, indeed, why we also have the English terms "militant," or "insurgent" or "combatant" or "paramilitary" or "terrorists." State-sponsored terrorists, also, are not considered part of a military force, neither are private military contractors, neither are the state-funded but unofficial militant wings of political parties/movements.

    You are, in other words, sticking to a highly simplistic definition and then getting angry that Starfleet doesn't fit that definition.:shrug:
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But Starfleet does fit that definition from everything we've seen them do on-screen.

    Talk about bait-and-switch...

    The pitch:

    "Join Starfleet to explore the universe!"

    The reality:

    "We're going to send you to a rock to defend Federation interests. But remember, we are not the military and you aren't a soldier."
     
  14. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

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    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    Its a very simple definition. If you are part of an armed force you in the military.

    Here is how the Hague Treaty would define it.
    1) To be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (Starfleet - CHECK!)

    2) To have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance; (Starfleet - CHECK!)

    3) To carry arms openly; and (Starfleet - CHECK!)

    4) To conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. (Starfleet - CHECK!)

    Result Analysis: Stafleet - Military, Crazy Eddie - denial.
     
  15. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

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    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    there are only three categories: military, paramilitary, civilian.

    if you bear arms you are military unless you happen to be specifically excluded in one of the laws of armed conflict conventions. Starfleet would not fit in any of those exceptions.
     
  16. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    This thread has been traveling in circles for quite some time, and has long lost sight of the premise given in the opening post:


    If there's anything else which remains to be covered besides repeated rounds of what's essentially
    "Starfleet is a military organization."
    "No, it isn't!"
    "Yes, it is!"
    [​IMG]

    I think it would be good if we got on with that now - directly, succinctly (perusing endless walls o' text is giving me a headache), and without further acrimony or veiled insult.
     
  17. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Japanese government disagrees.

    The Chinese Coast guard does, and has. Likewise the Japanese Coast Guard recently gathered international headlines by attacking and sinking what turned out to be a North Korean spy vessel in Japanese territorial waters.

    When two different Starfleet officers at two different times comment on being "uncomfortable with military officers on the ship" that tells you all you need to know.

    Their focus on NX-01 is narrow. We have no idea what they do as part of their normal duties. They could be part of Earth's principle land army, or they could be a bunch of mercenaries hired to do Starfleet's dirty work.

    The only thing we know for sure about them, however, is that Starfleet officers refer to them as "the military."

    And therefore serves the Federation just like Starfleet does.

    "Limited scope" would probably include every significant body of water on every Federation world in the galaxy. They would at minimum be equivalent to every Coast Guard organization on the planet Earth combined, multiplied across over a hundred Earthlike worlds. "Limited scope" indeed.

    As to threats: if a Borg ship crashed in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, you can be reasonably sure the Naval Patrol would be the first to respond.

    Impirical evidence:
    "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
    - Jean Luc Picard.

    The whole point of this debate is whether or not we should BELIEVE Picard (or Scotty, for that matter). But don't try to claim "there is no evidence," because there is.

    Three traits:
    1) It is both an armed and uniformed organization
    2) It is established by the the laws of the state
    3) Its statutory/founding mission is to successfully perpetrate wars and defend against foreign aggression.

    Starfleet has two out of the three traits: it is armed and uniformed and is established by Federation law. Its mission statement, however, is the exploration of space and scientific research, and its other responsibilities vis a vis military action, police action, security or disaster relief may not actually be part of Starfleet's charter (if, for example, the Federation has laws that require ANY competent organization to commit resources to deal with any type of emergency they are capable of resolving, up to and including interstellar war).

    Starfleet is therefore at best paramilitary. Other types of combat organizations also fail two out of the three tests would be similarly classified as either paramilitary, militant, combatant or just plain armed.

    True as that is, it's only a question in later centuries for those who think that the Captain and First Officer of the USS Enterprise are a couple of hippies and don't know what the hell they're talking about (and would prefer to believe David Marcus, who IS kind of a hippie and clearly doesn't know what he's talking about).
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I just think Picard and Scott have idealized visions of what they think Starfleet should be. Jim Kirk obviously doesn't. :shrug:
     
  19. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

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    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    ed, you can't make up your own definition of a military that conflicts with the Geneva and hague conventions and expect it to hold up. there's nothing in the accepted legal definition of armed force that include founding mission. I gave you the criteria in a previous post. why am I not surprised you ignored it?
     
  20. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    I can see how we could tap dance around whether or not Starfleet is a military or not through TOS and TNG but I would have thought that the last few seasons of DS9 would have put that discussion to bed. That wasn't some border skirmish between a Coast Guard cutter and some South American drug runner and the comparison of Starfleet to NOAA is laughable. NOAA isn't conducting multi fleet invasion operations like Starfleet did when they finally got to Cardassia or reclaimed DS9.