Scotty and his military comment

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Charles Phipps, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    This isn't a question of whether you agree whether Starfleet is a military organization or not, this is actually about your reaction to Scotty's surprise and disgust they're going to be involved in a hit.

    What did you think about JJ Abrams making sure general audiences knew about this?
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I didn't have a problem with it. Different people have different ideas on what is acceptable and the mission crossed Scotty's.
     
  3. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    I thought it articulated the idea Starfleet wasn't a military organization better than Picard's blanket pronunciation.

    Also, it had the weight of the fact it was an explicitly illegal strike too.
     
  4. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    While I had problems with Scotty's characterization in XI, in particular downgrading him to a comic relief role, I had no such problems in STID. Taking a stand in what he believes and willing to resign in protest of a mission he feels is wrong is perfectly in character for Scotty, and I could easily imagine Doohan Scotty doing something similar.

    I do wish they didn't go in the route of saying he objected to a military mission because Starfleet isn't military. They could have just said he had problems with the mission and not opened that can of worms. But whatever, "Starfleet isn't the military" is a lie that existed all the way to TNG and for whatever reason Abrams wants to continue with it.
     
  5. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I think it articulated the idea that the Enterprise's mission wasn't supposed to be military, and that that wasn't what Scotty signed on for.
     
  6. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    I used to think this but I've come around to the opposite. The US Navy does many humanitarian efforts but if it's primary purpose was science, I'd think calling it the Navy would be off.
     
  7. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But if it was expected to fight wars, calling it a navy would be about right.
     
  8. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Well it is called StarFLEET, so there's still an implication in there, especially in TOS, even if it's not explicit.
     
  9. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    You can have a fleet of merchant vessels. "Fleet" is not exclusive to military collections of ships in a navy.
     
  10. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    A fleet is a purpose-neutral term for any group of sailing vessels.
     
  11. 3chordboy

    3chordboy Commander Red Shirt

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    what about Pike's use of the word "armada" in the 2009 film when referring to Starfleet? :)
     
  12. solariabsg25

    solariabsg25 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The problem for Abrams is, Starfleet was always a military (see the organization in TOS, David's comments about scientists always being "pawns of the military" when Reliant reported it was going to pick up genesis etc).

    It's just that Roddenberry wanted to have his cake and eat it too, stating that despite the fact that they use a military organization, military rank structure, have military style awards, military style courts-martials, and are used in military operations such as wars, covert espionage, etc, they weren't military.

    JJ Abrams therefore needs to follow the military feel and structure, while also confirming Roddenberry's assertion that Starfleet is not a military organization.
     
  13. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I'm well aware of that. But if you've never heard of Star Trek, and I say that they belong to an organisation called Starfleet Command, what's your first reaction ?
     
  14. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    True. However, it was established (in the Prime universe/timeline/reality thingy, at least) that there also exists a "merchant service" which is separate from Starfleet - one which will accept personnel who have been dropped from the Academy for failing a fifth-year psycho-simulator test.
     
  15. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If you've never heard of Spaceguard, and I tell you I work for the Spaceguard Organization, what's YOUR first reaction?
     
  16. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    I have always thought of Starfleet as a combo of military and science. Whereas its primary goal was exploration and peace keeping but if war broke out the ships could also serve to defend if the need arose.
     
  17. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    It'd be really fine if you at least understood my point. There is plenty of evidence that starfleet is military. The name. The ranks. The naval tradition. The mission. The fact that the federation needs a military branch against its military enemies. Actual characters calling it the military in TWOK and TUC, etc.

    And there's also plenty of indications that it's not entirely military, especially in TNG and now STID. But I think that it's crazy to think that it's not military at all.
     
  18. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And there's plenty of evidence that it ISN'T. A standing military is a full-time professional battle force that devotes the overwhelming majority of its resources and energy into combat systems and missions and uses its surplus time/energy/equipment to help civilian projects on a case-by-case basis. Starfleet does the exact opposite of this: they devote the majority of their resources and energy into scientific systems and missions and use the surplus time/energy/equipment to carry out combat missions on a case-by-case basis. It's paramilitary at best.

    None of which are evidence that Starfleet is a military organization since
    1) Names are irrelevant, even one as ambiguous as "Starfleet". Likewise, if you didn't know what Spaceguard really was, you would assume I was an astronaut, not an astronomer.
    2) Ranks are irrelevant: police departments and private security firms have those too
    3) Naval tradition would be a lot more meaningful if Starfleet actually operated in the ocean. Crazy stunts notwithstanding, Starfleet rarely does so.
    4) The mission is peaceful exploration and scientific research. Combat is a secondary role they take on when necessary.

    As I said above, it's like a militia composed entirely of scientists. Science is Starfleet's full-time job; combat is a side gig.

    Possibly. It probably isn't Starfleet, though.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Um... everytime we see a military engagement, it is Starfleet doing the fighting.
     
  20. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    No one's disputing that Starfleet performs a function similar to the military in terms of space combat, but the question is whether or not that makes it a military when it also performs the function equivalent to NASA as well as diplomacy.