Same-species ship; not very UFP?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Mage, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Non Commissioned Officers? Why couldn't there be enlisted crewmembers from other species than Humans?
     
  2. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    My suspicion is that this is a combination of institutional inertia growing out of the founding worlds' original fleets, and of issues with biological compatibility and potential cultural conflicts.

    So we might have seen the early Federation Starfleet practice de facto species segregation essentially by allowing the crews of Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, and Human ships to continue serving amongst themselves when it folded the Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, and Human space services under the Federation Starfleet banner. This may have been both a concession to prejudice and the history of inter-species conflicts, and to more legitimate concerns about how to integrate space services with vastly different operational cultures.

    Over time, I imagine that Starfleet has gotten better at inter-species integration, with segregated ships or mostly segregated ships being less common. This seems to agree with the canon, which has gradually increased its depictions of non-Humans aboard Starfleet ships and stations. So maybe by the 23rd Century, we'd see a mostly-Human-with-a-Vulcan ship like the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (or maybe a mostly-Andorian-with-a-single-Tellarite ship like the U.S.S. Kumari NCC-1702, or a mostly-Vulcan-with-a-single-Andorian ship like the U.S.S. ShiKahr NCC-1703); and then by the 24th Century, we see a ship with a Human plurality but a significant multi-species minority like the Enterprise-D (with corresponding other pluralities on other ships); and perhaps by the 25th Century, the Enterprise-H is so thoroughly integrated that there's no real species dominance in its crew makeup.

    The novels have addressed the question of inter-species integration in the Federation Starfleet. Part of the premise behind the Star Trek: Titan series is that the U.S.S. Titan, and its other Luna-class sister ships, was explicitly designed to have the most biologically and culturally diverse crews ever seen.
     
  3. t_smitts

    t_smitts Captain Captain

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    Yes, a captain would have some discretion over the crew assigned to his ship, but it seems highly unlikely that a captain could request ONLY members of his own species.
     
  4. Mage

    Mage Commodore Commodore

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    Well, since most aliens we see in Trek seem to be able to mingle comfortably with humans without either species needing anything in terms of breathingmasks or gravity-support ( I said most, not all), the entire idea of only humans being able to serve in the lifesupport settings on a starship is not a very good one.
     
  5. I'd like to see an all-Excalbian ship, but I'm guessing they don't travel in ships.
     
  6. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or perhaps the T'Kumbra gradually became a Vulcan-only ship, as the non-Vulcans who served there eventually left because they couldn't stand Solok's attitude. :p
     
  7. LobsterAfternoon

    LobsterAfternoon Commander Red Shirt

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    I'd like to think that it's really just budgetary. Plus, if you want, you can pretend any human with brown eyes is a Betazoid.
     
  8. LobsterAfternoon

    LobsterAfternoon Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't want to get into a canon argument, but the crews in the novels and comics are significantly more diverse, yah?
     
  9. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Realistically, as a Nebula class ship, the T'Kumbra likely has a crew of 900. I don't see how they could all be Vulcan. Even with Solok being a rascist prick, wouldn't he really only have a say in his senior staff? Surely the captain doesn't decide every individual crew member of a ship, just the senior staff and other key officer posts. The bulk of the enlisted crew would simply be assigned by Starfleet and Solok would have to make do. And really, I don't see Starfleet assigning only people of a certain species to a ship with a crew of 900.
     
  10. Shawnster

    Shawnster Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I always thought the Sheliak were very similar to the Excalibans; but, that may have been due to poor TV reception. :rommie:
     
  11. JessDD

    JessDD Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    The Sheliak Corporate - If it was only THAT easy to round up all the lawyers and send them to some far off star system.
     
  12. Navigator_NCC2120

    Navigator_NCC2120 Captain Captain

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    There was this exchange crewman wearing some equipment to help him breath while on the Enterprise-D from the Season 2 episode "A Matter of Honor". Riker was serving on a Klingon Bird of Prey enjoying Klingon cuisine while it was still alive ;).


    Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
    /\
     
  13. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    That's your own opinion speaking. If Solok truly thought Humans were an inferior species, then it is illogical for him to be associated in any kind with them (and that includes both Federation citizenship and service in Starfleet).
    This right here. The T'Kumbra probably was launched from Seleya Station or from some other facility in the Vulcan System.

    There probably are a few ships launched from the Sol System that may have all-Human crews.

    On the other hand, you have the Starship Hera that had a Human captain but a mostly Vulcan crew, so starship crews can be either multi-species or single-species, with the mix probably determined mostly by where the ship is deployed from and what personnel are available at the time, IMO.
     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    As I said before, it is just as illogical - perhaps even more so - to even think in the first place that humans are inferior to Vulcans. (The concept of 'superior' and 'inferior' races are, logically, meaningless. It's emotional and illogical to believe in such things. Solok, being Vulcan, is not entitled to that.) Solok obviously believes that, so it's hardly a stretch that he compounds that supposed "illogic" by joining Starfleet.

    Besides, perhaps the reason Solok did that was so he could rub it in the humans' faces, so to speak. Solok believes in the superiority of Vulcans, so he joins Starfleet in order to try and prove it.

    As for the T'Kumbra: I still believe that Solok could have used his influence at Starfleet Command in order to populate his ship with an all-Vulcan crew. That way, he gets the best of both worlds: he gets to serve in Starfleet, but not alongside "filthy humans".
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I don't understand this sort of PC bullshit. If species A has greater strength on the average than species B, then species A is superior in strength. If A has better memory than B, A is superior in memory. And so forth.

    It can be debated till bovine rehabilitation whether a good score in, say, hearing will restore the worth of species B after it has scored dismally against A in everything else. But Solok need not be concerned with that. He can count the score of Vulcans on those points that pertain to prowess in Starfleet service and compare it against the score of humans, and reach the absolutely correct conclusion that Vulcans are superior to humans as Starfleet officers and crewmen.

    That is, assuming that the scores justify that. But we are given no reason to think they would not.

    Certainly Solok comes off as a bigot because the impression we get is that he believes in "overall" superiority of Vulcans, whereas as already said, that's a battleground without rules: anybody can come and say either that

    a) all species are equal because the various easily observed superiorities somehow always happen to cancel each other out exactly or
    b) in fact B is superior to A because the one attribute where B triumphs is more important than all the ones where A triumphs put together.

    Of course, a) and b) represent true bigotry, a deliberate perverting of facts by the introduction of frivolous "weights" for the scores, but Solok's position is weakened if he tries to extend his argument outside a certain set of parameters. Then again, his audience is likely to consist of bigots who won't bother to listen even if Solok defines his parameters.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    I believe that's an extraordinary stretch. I think it's more likely that Solok just has a superiority complex. I'm sure Solok does believe that Vulcans do some things better than Humans do, just like someone like McCoy may believe Humans do some things better than Vulcans. Such opinions can be viewed as racist, but then any discussion about the differences between races can be considered racist.
    I think that goes straight into the realm of implausible and totally undermines the very principles the Federation was built on. I believe that the T'Kumbra was simply a ship launched from Vulcan and just had an all-Vulcan crew during that point in time. Heck, by now, the ship may even have Humans and other Federation races as members of its complement following a recent crew rotation away from Vulcan.
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't, I think some physical and cultural divides are far to large to bridge. Look at what happened with Vorik and Torres in Blood Fever, Spock and Kirk in Amok Time or Picard reprimanding Worf in Reunion. You're asking too much for folks to put away inherent genetic traits and cultural training.

    Spock was half-human and still kept his quarters warmer than the rest of the ship. Why should races who evolved under tremendously different environmental conditions have to live/work in discomfort under the guise of diversity?
     
  18. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    There's never been a tv show where 90% of the cast were visually apparent aliens in an interplanetary/interstellar community. Hollywood thinks people wont accept or indentify with them and unfortunately they are probably right.
     
  19. RAMA

    RAMA Admiral Admiral

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    There are species who will be "superior", some may billions of years older, and would be so on every measurable level, however the question has to be whether they believe every species has equal "rights" even if there is such inequality. I'm hoping this is the case.

    RAMA
     
  20. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, none of this is at all what I'm talking about, but rather the idea that the Federation would condone segregation based entirely on someone's personal dislike of another Federation race.