Romulus in Prime timeline [spoilers]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Silversmok3, Jun 4, 2009.

  1. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh come on. We all know they were just telling 'those' TREKIES that they're not trying to piss on everything held dear for fourty years. Canon begone in nuTrek. ST0 is like a canon cannon! :guffaw:

    Let me ask you all this:
    If Uncle Spock travels forward to the 24th century what will he find? Will there be all the people he has ever known remembering the canon just as he does? Or will there be a completely different set of events (perhaps somewhat similar) in the canon?

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  2. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commander Red Shirt

    He'll probably find an incredibly advanced society with analogs to Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Data et cetera. There's a weird sense of "destiny" present in the film (Spock Prime is adamant about Kirk and nuSpock becoming friends, and not helping out, detrimentally I believe).

    The novel "The Good That Men Do" mentions an alternate universe (mirror universe) that operates entirely differently but has direct analogs of many people. It's attributed by one character to a higher power (maybe "God") and I assume the same thing will apply to this alternate reality. Tuvok might never come to exist though (and Sakonna and Selar and maybe Saavik or Valeris).
     
  3. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

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    or ... NOT! He certainly won't find the planet Vulcan will he? No "higher power" gonna make that work. He might find that nothing resembles the time he left.
     
  4. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure what you mean. Orci and Kurtzman found a way to tell a new version of the TOS story that gave them the creative freedom they would lack in the prime continuity without completely disregarding that continuity. I don't know why you insist on thinking that they meant to destroy that continuity or don't really care about it, especially since they've made it clear that they became Trek fans through TNG, not TOS.

    They came up with a creative solution that gave them the creative freedom to do TOS according to a new interpretation whilst still allowing future Trek stories to be told in the original continuity. What's wrong with that?

    You seem to misunderstand the definition of the term "canon."

    "Canon" does not refer to a shared continuity in which multiple stories are set. That's what "continuity" means (or, if you're talking from an in-universe POV, "timeline"). A canon is simply a collection of stories created by a common creator or owner. Sherlock Holmes is the perfect example; there is a "Sherlock Holmes canon" of the four novels and 56 short stories about Sherlock Holmes written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, but there are also numerous non-canonical stories about Holmes written by later writers. Those stories might be completely compatible in terms of continuity with the canonical stories, but it is simply the fact that they weren't written by Conan Doyle that makes them non-canonical.

    In other words, the canon is simply the body of stories upon which later stories are based. That's it.

    Star Trek has a canon, and this new film is part of that canon. Star Trek also has two major continuities, the original TOS/TNG continuity, and this nuTrek continuity. But the canon has always had other continuities as well -- the Mirror Universe, for example, or the various alternate timelines that have been overwritten ("Year of Hell," for instance, is a canonical story that is not part of the prime continuity since it got the Reset Button), and the alternate timelines that exist parallel to the prime timeline/continuity.

    In other words, this new film is not a "canon cannon." It's not "Canon-B-Gone." It's simply a film that shifts our focus as the audience from the prime continuity to a new one.

    That would depend upon which 24th Century he travels to -- the 24th Century of the prime timeline, or the 24th Century of this new timeline (which Memory Alpha refers to as the Alternate Reality). I rather imagine that if he were able to travel through that black hole he came through, he'd wind up back in the prime 24th Century.
     
  5. Silversmok3

    Silversmok3 Commander Red Shirt

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    Its the Back II the Future paradox-if Spock slingshots around a sun to the 24th century in the Alternate Timeline,he's gonna be just as lost,as that 24th century will be something different than what he left.

    To 'return' to his home reality,hed have to jump back to Neros arrival and destroy the Narada before going 'back to the future' -and even then things may not be 100% normal,but at least Vulcan will still exist,the Kelvin finished its tour,George Kirk raises his son,etc..
     
  6. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

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    I am well aware of the definition of 'canon' and apologise for any confusion in my loose usage.
    This is where we differ. I see ST0 as apart from the old Trek. This is the only way to truly be free to tell your stories. We take what has come before as pop culture reference and move on from there in any direction we like.

    Don't misunderstand me either. I love the old Trek. I would say that it's fair to venture that few on this board have been watching and loving Star Trek in its various incarnations for as long as I have been. I am insistent that this new universe is indeed completely different because it needs to be to move forward. Canon nerds can scream and rave all they want about everything still being the same, but it isn't and it will never be again. I embrace this fully and am ready for the adventures we will now encounter regardless of how it works out or doesn't with the old universe.

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  7. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

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    pookha

    no it just ment they were paying attention to the mirror universe and to
    tng's parallels.
    so there is certainly a prior trek basis for it.


    going back to the romulans..
    was it ever said any where how big was the empire and how many races it involved.
     
  8. Captain Fine

    Captain Fine Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think it's ever been mentioned on screen. But it'd be pretty lame if the "Romulan Star Empire" had only two planets haha.
     
  9. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    This is just a matter of replying to your saying you disagree with the idea that the new film is part of the Trek canon: Whatever we may think about how far apart from oldTrek nuTrek is from a story perspective, the fact remains that the new film is a part of the Star Trek canon. This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. Paramount and CBS are the owners of Star Trek, and the owners of a property determine what makes up its canon. Therefore, if CBS and Paramount say the new film is canon (which they do), then it is objectively canon.

    :bolian:
     
  10. TrekGuide.com

    TrekGuide.com Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This is not true in all cases. In "Star Trek Generations," after Picard and Soran enter the Nexus, time continues in the original timeline, with the sun exploding, and the Enterprise-D being destroyed. This was shown onscreen AFTER Picard and Soran entered the Nexus. Picard and Kirk later went back in time and created a new timeline, where the sun did NOT explode and the Enterprise-D was NOT destroyed, but both timelines were shown on screen.

    Likewise, in "Yesterday's Enterprise," Lt. Yar left one timeline, where the Federation was at war with the Klingon Empire, and entered the familiar new timeline where the Federation was NOT at war, and she continued to live in the new timeline with memories of the one she came from.

    In the "Enterprise" episode "In a Mirror, Darkly," the U.S.S. Defiant from the TOS timeline entered the Mirror Universe 100 years in the past, through an ongoing rift between the two alternate universes. But both alternate realities co-existed side-by-side.

    In "Star Trek XI," after Nero enters the black hole and changes history for 25 years, Spock continues to exist in his original timeline for several seconds before entering the same past that Nero has been in. The black hole obviously creates an ongoing gateway between the two universes, and there's no reason to believe from on-screen evidence that Picard and the Enterprise-E couldn't enter the black hole several hours after Spock and Nero and emerge in the same alternate reality that they entered.

    In TNG episode "Remember Me," Dr. Crusher is trapped in a pocket universe that seems identical to hers, but it is collapsing, and she manages to escape back into her own universe the same way she entered.

    The black hole in "Star Trek XI" may be similar to this, since there seems to be a time differential between the two timelines, with 25 years passing in the earlier timeline while only a few seconds have passed in the "Prime" timeline.

    In TNG's "Time Squared," Picard went into the past and met himself, but when his past was changed, the future Picard faded away "Back to the Future"-style. But in "Voyager's" finale, "Endgame," Admiral Janeway went back in time and met her younger self, but both continued to exist with memories of their own timelines. In TNG's "Parallels," Worf passed through numerous alternate timelines, all of which co-existed side-by-side.

    Clearly, the "Star Trek" canon has shown time travel, alternate realities, parallel universes, and causality loops in dozens of different contexts, and each time the "laws of physics" are bent to accommodate the particular story. There is no consistent rule or "law" of time travel through all of "Star Trek's" 700 episodes.

    Nothing we have seen would indicate that Picard and the Enterprise-E and Admiral Janeway and Deep Space Nine are not still out there after Spock and Nero entered the black hole (and could choose to follow them through the black hole at a later time). Like in "Star Trek Generations," the original timeline is still there, even after the time travelers left it.

    No, "Star Trek" does not consistently show one way or the other.

    In "Star Trek: First Contact" and "The City on the Edge of Forever," the captain is pulled into a new timeline where the Federation does not exist. This is clearly an entirely new timeline, caused by the changes made in the past. The captain then CHOOSES to go into the past of this SECOND timeline to "undo" the changes in history, thereby creating a THIRD timeline, which is similar to his original timeline, but not identical. He then returns to the "present" of this third timeline, which is pretty much the same as the one he remembers.

    In "Yesterday's Enterprise," Lt. Yar went back in time on the Enterprise-C, creating a new timeline, but she continued to live in this new timeline, whose history was different from her own. The same happened in "Endgame," when Admiral Janeway went into the past and changed history, but continued to live in the new timeline. This is different from the stories in "First Contact" and "City," since no one went back to "fix" the second timeline.

    But in "Time Squared," when Picard went back in time and changed his own past, he faded away, having erased himself from history. This one episode indicates a single timeline, but it is different from every other time travel story depicted in "Star Trek."

    "Star Trek" handles time travel differently depending on the mode of time travel.

    At the end of "First Contact" and "The City on the Edge of Forever," after the captain went back into the second timeline to "undo" the changes, he created a third timeline, similar to the original, and it was that third timeline to whose future he "returned" at the end. All the changes he made in the past were a part of that new future he "returned" to, but are different from the past he remembered from the original timeline.

    If Spock Prime tries to use some form of time travel (other than the black hole) to "return" to the 24th century, then he will end up 129 years in the future of that alternate timeline, where Vulcan is still destroyed.

    But since we have seen on-screen that the black hole is an ongoing (if intermittent) gateway between the Prime timeline and the Abramsverse timeline, if Spock can find the black hole and find a way to pass through it again, he could return to his Prime timeline again, just a few seconds after he left, and find Vulcan and Picard and Janeway all there waiting for him.

    It's possible that the black hole can't be opened from the past timeline, which is why Nero had to wait 25 years for it to reappear when Spock passed through, so unless Picard or Riker or someone from the Prime timeline comes back through the black hole and somehow holds it open, then Spock may never find a way back to his original future.

    No, you are treating this new film like "Galaxy Quest" -- a parody of the ongoing "Star Trek" universe.

    But this film is definitely a sequel, carrying the story forward from everything that Spock Prime has experienced for the past 150 years.

    "Star Trek XI" is also, chronologically and causally, the next episode of "Enterprise," just 100 years later. It is in the same continuity, the same canon, as the previous 98 episodes of "Enterprise." Every one of those episodes is a part of history in this new film series, and by extension, every time traveler -- from the Borg Queen, FutureGuy, and Daniels, to the Sphere-builders, Nero, and Ambassador Spock -- who has had an impact on history, is still a part of this movie's history.

    So the writers of future "Star Trek" episodes are still bound by the continuity established in the past 700 episodes of the canon. Andorians are still blue. Orions are still green. Tholians are still punctual. Romulan disruptors are still green. Tribbles are still fuzzy.

    The writers and producers are still bound by canon. This is not "Galaxy Quest." This is not "Battlestar Galactica." This is still the same universe with Romulans and Klingons and Cardassians and starships and transporters and, yes, time travel.

    If you are trying to argue that time travel somehow violates "canon," then Admiral Janeway getting the Voyager home 20 years early in "Endgame" did the exact same thing. She went back, met her younger self, changed history, and continued to live in that new timeline. That's exactly what Spock does in "Star Trek XI."

    Why would "Endgame" and "Star Trek: Nemesis" (which takes place in the alternate timeline with Admiral Janeway) be part of the canon, but not "Star Trek XI"? Even if they are in alternate timelines, or alternate realities, or parallel universes, they are all part of the same continuity, and in any event, "Star Trek XI" is definitely still in the future of the "Enterprise" timeline, so the Paramount canon continues to constrain the producers. They still can't depict Deltans with afros, or Betazoids with blue eyes, or Gorn with feathers. The continuity and basic laws of the "Star Trek" universe remains intact, regardless of time travel.

    I, too, have seen all 736 episodes of "Star Trek." No one has seen more "Star Trek" episodes than I have, because I've seen them all. Some are better than others, but I still appreciate the ongoing series as a whole.

    It has moved 100 years forward from the last episode of "Enterprise."

    Due to time travel and changes to history, we don't know who is going to live and what planets will still be around in the future, but this movie series is as much a part of "Star Trek" continuity as any other.

    The only "canon nerds" are the producers and writers who work for Paramount Pictures. Everyone else, like you and I, just has an opinion. Paramount produces the "Star Trek" canon -- regardless of your opinion, or mine -- and only Paramount can discard the canon, or continue to follow it.

    When Admiral Janeway changed 30 years of history in "Endgame," that didn't "violate canon." The new timeline she created simply became a part of the canon, and "Star Trek: Nemesis" followed the canon of that new timeline. This new film series is doing the exact same thing. It is a new timeline, but it exists only because of the decades of history in the original timeline.

    When Lt. Yar left her original timeline with the Klingon war, history was never the same again, but she continued to exist, and the story moved forward in the new timeline. This new film is no different.

    CBS still owns the TV rights, and they are free to create a new series -- e.g., with Riker and the U.S.S. Titan -- set AFTER Spock and Nero disappeared into the black hole. Just like with the Mirror Universe, or all the alternate timelines depicted in "Parallels," or the two timelines depicted in "Star Trek Generations," this new film series can co-exist with the "Prime" timeline in the 24th Century. But like all alternate realities depicted in "Star Trek," both are equally real.

    This new film is not "Galaxy Quest." It is not a new series. It is the 736th episode of "Star Trek," and the next movie will be the 737th episode.

    And if, after three movies, Spock finds the black hole again and returns to his own future, where Picard and Riker are waiting, and he realizes that the past three movies were just a pocket universe that exists solely inside the black hole's event horizon (like in TNG's "Remember Me") then Ambassador Spock can go home to Vulcan and get on with his life, and CBS/Paramount can continue with the "Star Trek" series in whatever timeline they choose.

    As long as Paramount produces new movies, the "Star Trek" canon will continue to grow. History has been changed in many epsodes, from "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Endgame" to "Shockwave" and "The Expanse," creating major changes to the timeline, but as viewers we adapt to the new history, and tune in to the next episode, because it's still "Star Trek," and the story continues.
     
  11. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commander Red Shirt

    Interesting, if they enter hours later it would be centuries into the future of the prime timeline (assuming the "seconds" = 25 years increases sequentially). Spock would be way, way too long gone (he's already 155 years old! He only has, maybe, a hundred years left).

    Time Squared was originally supposed to be a two-parter with Q Who?, with Q popping up at the end. It's entirely possible that the events of Time Squared (and the temporal vortex seen therein) operate in ways totally different than just normal time travel. Or it was just a silent test in Q's ongoing trial of humanity.

    There's also "Tomorrow is Yesterday," where Captain Christopher was superimposed over his own body (and the police sergeant too, apparently) as time reversed in a weird situation. That seems unprecedented.

    You know, V'ger fell into a black hole and showed up on the other side of the galaxy, and presumably a long, long time ago. I guess this movie proves that V'ger's "original" timeline still exists elsewhere (and is mostly identical up till the time of TMP).

    I used to wonder who, if you can define it, the central character of Star Trek was. Was it Kirk, the original captain? Worf, the character with the most appearances? Now it seems to be Spock, the only tie between TOS, TNG, nuTrek, and who appeared in both the first production ("The Cage") and the latest (Star Trek). Pike doesn't count, because of his one only other appearance and alternate status in the film.

    We don't know how the Romulans (the real ones) might have evolved their disruptors over the last twenty-five years of increased Federation intel. They might've evolved to use some sort of plasma weapon (the Dominion kind).

    I can only help but wonder, do you think the El-Aurians are having a collective headache right now? (Joke, I believe in the nexus & Guinan theory which the new timeline might've wiped out)

    Extremely well written response.
     
  12. xman

    xman Commander Red Shirt

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    Sorry TrekGuide.com, you're wrong on many points, (although correct on some as well) but I'll let somebody else bash their head against that wall for a while.

    X
     

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