Romulan Klingon War

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by The Overlord, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    It seems like there was war between the Romulan and Klingon Empires between TOS and TNG. The Romulans and Klingons were allies at the end of TOS, but seems like some time after TOS that alliance fell apart and the Klingons and Romulans became enemies. I would assume that after the Romulans launching a sneak attack on Khitomer, that Klingons would declare war on the Romulan Empire.

    The Romulans also attacked a Klingon outpost on Narendra III, so it seemed like there was a state of war between the Klingons and the Romulans.

    So what happened, how did this war end? I think Klingons would want to strike a really great blow against the Romulan Empire, after the Khitomer attack, the Klingons went to war with the Federation for far less, but for some reason the war stopped with no clear winner. Were both sides so easily matched that no side could could really achieve a great victory over the other side? Did they ever sign a cease fire, because I assume there was never a peace treaty between the two sides.
     
  2. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think it was so much a war as it was a falling out between the Romulans and the Klingons at some point after the Khitomer Conference (and perhaps the Tomed Incident too), IMO. The two sides have probably never been friendly with one another and if their territories butted up against one another, they may have been frequently engaged in occasional border clashes. Both Khitomer and Narendra III may have been in territory that the Romulans considered theirs and took steps to remove what they considered uninvited guests (the Klingon colonists on both worlds).
     
  3. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    I can't imagine why the Klingons wouldn't declare war on the Romulan Empire after the Khitomer attack, the Klingons would have considered that a dishonorable attack and 4000 dead Klingon colonists would more then enough reason to justify a war with the Romulans. The Klingons went to war with the Federation for far less then that, the Klingons actually would have reason to go to war with Romulans, but they didn't, that seems very out of character for them.

    This would be like after the Pearl Harbor attack, the US didn't declare war on Japan, that wouldn't make sense.

    Also at one point there was an time when they got along, near the end of TOS there were hints of alliance between the two powers, with Worf saying the Klingons were allies with Romulans before they attacked and the romulans using Klingon war ships in the "Enterprise Incident". So there was an alliance that went south at some point.

    I think there is an interesting story here that has never been told.

    Plus Martok and Lt. Klag from "A Matter of Honor" have mentioned conflicts with Romulans.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  4. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not every nation declares full-out war upon another. Some conflicts are short, small-scale affairs in areas of disputed territory. I don't think even the Klingons declare war without first weighing the pros and cons.
     
  5. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    Except the Klingons seem very trigger happy in the past, why did they declare war on the Federation? I don't think the Federation ever did something as sneaky or destructive the Khitomer attack and the Klingons declared war on Cardassia for very flimsy reasons in DS9. It seems like the Klingons look for reasons to go to war, not shy away from it.

    Not mention the Khitomer attack should have moved that into a all out war, I think a lot of Klingons would have taken personal offense at such an attack and wanted revenge on the Romulans, that would go beyond small scale borders conflicts, it would have become personal after that. The Klingons not declaring war after such a brazen gambit by the Romulans seems extremely out of character for them.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    The Klingons launched a first strike on Cardassia in an attempt to prevent the Dominion from gaining it as an ally. If the Federation had gotten out of the way, the war might have been much more complicated for the Dominion to wage.

    I think the Klingons would wage war like anyone else, weighing cost versus potential benefit.
     
  7. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because they likely had more to gain going against the Federation during TOS. In comparison, the Klingons probably had more to lose fighting the Romulans in the post-TOS/pre-TNG era.
     
  8. Admiral_Sisko

    Admiral_Sisko Lieutenant Commander

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    Agreed. It's also important to consider that governments adopt the personality and tendencies of their leaders, and it's possible that officials with different views on war with the Romulans came into power prior to the events of The Next Generation.
     
  9. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    It could be that rather than the entire Klingon Empire going to war over Khitomer or Narendra, only particular houses that were directly harmed went to war with the Romulans. There's no reason to think that the entire Empire would want to fight over the destruction of a couple of colonies. And the larger noble families probably have their own warships, and wouldn't feel the need to wait for the Chancellor's approval to fight. So history from the Federation perspective would record that the Klingon political entity did nothing in response to Khitomer and/or Narendra, but looking more closely, we'd see that a de facto state of war existed.
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Regarding the role of Houses in Klingon politics, "Apocalypse Rising" makes it sound as if backing off from an ongoing war won't happen on Gowron's word alone - the Houses will have to be persuaded to follow their formal leader in a lengthy process. This may just be Gowron blatantly lying to keep the war going, of course.

    But speaking of "Apocalypse Rising"...

    I'm not sure why Klingons would even believe in declaring of war. It's not as if they would believe in peace in the first place - so why celebrate an imaginary transition from a nonexistent state to the normal state of affairs?

    They didn't. They just took "back" ownership of Archanis and said that if there's any attempt to resist, "there will be war". No actual declaration thereof was heard. By the next episode, the fighting is on...

    Klingons and Romulans may or may not have had an alliance at one point - but they have definitely been fighting basically all the time, alliance or no alliance. All the way back in 2271, the two clashed at Klach D'Kel Bract, if Kor's story from "Blood Oath" can be trusted. Apparently, a little fighting every now and then keeps alliances fresh, in both Klingon and Romulan opinion.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    What are basing though, why would a war with the Romulans be less costly then a war with the Federation. Plus doesn't the Klingon Empire not declaring war on the Romulans after they murdered 4000 of their citizens make them look really weak and wouldn't the Klingon Empire not want to appear weak?
     
  12. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Vice Admiral Admiral

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    While some individual Klingons are often perceived as always being quick to battle, they actually aren't as a whole. The Klingon goverment more often than not chooses its battles carefully. If the situation is one where they'll wind up losing far more than they'll gain, they won't do it. I don't think any nation would last long if they did.
     
  13. Xerxes1979

    Xerxes1979 Captain Captain

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    If you go with with "the Klingon Empire has fifty years of life left" line from Star Trek VI one might surmise that the Narendra and Khitomer attacks happened at a particularly weak time for the Klingons.

    The Romulans already had some type of Warbirds yet I doubt Vorchas were in service yet.

    Maybe a calculation was made that a full military response would have resulted in greater defeats and or dishonor.

    I also like the theory that house Duras was powerful and prevented hostility between the two powers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  14. EmperorTiberius

    EmperorTiberius Captain Captain

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    Isn't Khitmoer under Romulan control? They might have actually won whatever war there was
     
  15. Satyrquaze

    Satyrquaze Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just for the sake of adding some sort of evidence of a conflict, Commander Toreth describes commanding a decisive Romulan victory over a Klingon fleet in "The Face of the Enemy".
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    In the immediate aftermath of the Romulan attack, it wasn't under Romulan control - a Starfleet vessel was able to get there to look for Klingon survivors, and didn't have to get permission from Romulans, because that would have counted as "direct contact" which we know did not take place between 2311 and 2364.

    Later on, we hear very little about the place. But in DS9 "When It Rains...", the first meeting between Admiral Ross and Chancellor Gowron is said to have taken place on Khitomer. Ross is in his apparent fifties; Gowron is of indeterminate age. For most of their lifetimes, Romulans would not have been letting either Feds or Klingons on their property.

    So the meeting might establish Khitomer as being Klingon- or Federation-owned in the timespan from the Romulan surprise attack to the final year of the Dominion War. Or then the meeting might have taken place during that final war year, when Romulans would be allies, and might invite Klingons and Feds to Khitomer for old times' sake.

    We just don't know for sure. We also don't know who owned the planet during ST6:TUC. Was it considered neutral in the UFP/KE conflict because it was a Romulan world? Or was the planet owned by those human-looking folks wearing green sashes and sitting under a green sunrise flag?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Hawaii didn't become Japanese territory after they struck Pearl Harbor. Why would Khitomer necessarily fall into Romulans hands just because they struck at the Klingon colony there? There were something like 4000 colonists killed, but out of how large a population? 4001? 40000? 400000? Was the Klingon population of Khitomer ever established?
     
  18. EmperorTiberius

    EmperorTiberius Captain Captain

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    Yeah, but if today, Hawaii were part of Japanese Empire, you would think that the war ended differently than with Nagasaki
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Guam did, at least until America took it back.

    Many of the places that the Japanese took over in WWII, the civilian populations far outnumbered the invaders. If Khitomer, and it's population, were under Romulan control following the attack, they would hold the planet as territory, until someone in turn took it from them.

    However long that was.

    :)
     
  20. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    But there's no hint that the Romulans ever held Khitomer, just that they attacked it. We have no astropolitical context for the attack, either. Were the Romulans striking back at Klingons for a previous assault? Were the Romulans that hit Khitomer even acting under the orders of the Senate? Could they have been Romulan privateers or perhaps renegades?

    Given that Narendra and Khitomer were struck within two years of each other suggests that there was a state of war between the Klingons and the Romulans, but how invested each side was in the war is unclear. There may not have been any exchange of territories at all during this war, just hit-and-run attacks on planets and some ship-to-ship battles.
     

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