Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ZapBrannigan, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And how did Sisko get that location for his restaurant in the first place? What if someone else also wanted that location for a different business, did they wrestle in the street for it? Or did Sisko out bid (money) the other person for it?

    Housing (as in a house) apparently isn't. Kirk owned and later sold his house. Because Grandpa Sisko had a restaurant, and not just a large room with tables in his home, food is sold.

    Given that they are buying and selling property, mortgages likely still exist.

    The impression I've received from the show is that robots and robotics are not completely unknown, but are very rare, jobs are done by people.

    When Deanna was taking her bridge officer qualification test, there wasn't the option of sending a machine into a radioactive area to effect a repair, she had to send a person.

    Interesting idea, the more you put into society, the more you get back. Expend no effort, and you're be a protected, provided for second class citizen (maybe third class).


    :)
     
  2. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    And you just spelled out all the reasons why DS9 is my number one favorite trek :techman:
     
  3. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

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    Good grief, no. I can understand them being more fun to watch or whatever, but wow, no way.
     
  4. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
    Ditto.
     
  5. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    The Neutral Zone gets a lot of flak for it's condescending attitude toward 20th-century people, but if a bunch of refugees from the 17th century walked through a time portal to modern times, how tolerant and understanding do you think we'd be toward their worldview?

    I really think GR was on to something with his ideas about enlightened humanity. Not as an end goal, but as a process that's been going on for millennia and will continue into the future.
     
  6. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    I think it's fair that Roddenberry wanted to advance a goal for human development, but the settings and the restrictions placed on dramatic presentation leave many questions about what it all means and how we get there. I wouldn't find it surprising that the smartest, most talented humans, who have been incorporated into a disciplined uniform service, would represent the best qualities of humanity: the same could be said, more or less, of the graduates of Annapolis or Harvard today. Add to that that these people work exclusively those who share their values. Everyone on a starship would be tolerant: they would be selected to be tolerant. However, life isn't such a rarified organization that can move on to new locations after a few days.
     
  7. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    I would be understanding that they have gone through a traumatic event and understand that they need re educating.

    I certainly would not be patronising and out right rude to the poor people like in TNG. If that what "evolved" really is then Im happy being a monkey.
     
  8. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    I find it interesting that there is nothing like a "universalizing" religion is DS9. One's religion is a matter of one's beliefs and one's ethnic membership. I can think of any religion that claims to be the one truth for everyone, and there is no effort to convert everyone. (Although my memory might fail me on this).
     
  9. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    So in other words, you'd act nice toward the people, while at the same time tell them everything they've ever believed is wrong?
     
  10. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Commander Red Shirt

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    No I act compassionately toward them while gentle easing them into there new way of life.

    Yeah they have to have there wrong way of thought corrected but that does not mean you have to be a douche about it does it?

    If a kid gets a his homework wrong you don't (or shouldn't) be a complete dick about it, you sit them down a nicely explain what was wrong with it.
     
  11. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    For me, I'd definitely not live on Earth. Not sure about Bajor or Kronos.

    If it's as uptight as displayed, you couldn't get me off that planet fast enough.
     
  12. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    But according to this:

    "Alexander was also the man responsible for destroying what remained of the ancient credit systems, since not only the Phoenicians but also the old Mesopotamian heartland had resisted the new coin economy." Debt: the First 5,000 Years by David Graeber

    It seems the Ancients around the east Mediterranean weren't too ecstatic about the monetized economy. Graeber maintains money is a tool of the state or regime to impose taxes to fund war machines and impose sovereignty and that mutual aid or credit systems (like the Egyptian grain) were otherwise the norm, not money or barter.

    "Knapp considered it absurd to attempt to understand money 'without the idea of the state.' Money is not a medium that emerges from exchange. It is rather a means for accounting for and settling debts, the most important of which are tax debts." The Nature of Money by Geoffrey Ingham
     
  13. Frontier

    Frontier Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Dunno if it's been mentioned, but the whole "no pockets" thing.

    Just cause a society doesn't have money doesn't mean they don't have do-dads or whatever else to put in pockets still...

    The no jewelery thing was silly, too. Especially since Uhura got to wear earrings sometimes.
     
  14. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    So now you're comparing people from a previous era to ignorant children. Thanks for confirming my original point.
     
  15. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    In response to T'Girl,

    Wow! Except for the fact that the kibbutzim help lay the foundation for a future nation. Talk about minimizing.

    "In short, the individual has no money, nor does he need any, because his economic needs are satisfied by the kibbutz." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro.

    Sounds moneyless to me.

    The San Francisco Diggers were a sub-culture, much like their historic namesakes from England. Much of their food came from restaurant and super market overflows that would have otherwise been tossed away.
    They did try with their free housing, free store and other moneyless projects to make an important statement about poverty and homelessness in an abundant society. In fact, their most famous member Peter Coyote even had a few poignant statements about scarcity in the land of plenty:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iki6oDgPf48

    Nearly a century ago the IWW (a.k.a Wobblies) had over 100k members and they did help improve conditions significantly for the American worker.

    "Around the turn of the century, the Wobblies and other anarchists played the central role in winning workers the 5-day week and 8-hour day." David Graeber - Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology.

    Your penchant for minimizing knows no bounds, T'G. A guilt complex, perhaps?

    I mentioned it in my posting: "Star Trek IV: Changes in society since 1986" in one of the Star Trek movie forums. Unfortunately, it's no longer there.

    But worldwide they've grown in popularity due to the global recession and have helped so many around the world to at least get by. But as usual you keep trying to minimize the impact it has had. Try being that dismissive with the many people who've had to rely on them.

    Have you not seen this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPdXTq9zUvk

    Thousands and thousands of Argentinians getting by w/o money in a self-organized economy for the better part of a decade. Again, explain to these desperate people how futile their efforts are.

    Like I've said, the Kibbutz movement during the early decades were completely socialized and did not use money. Even today there are close to 300 kibbutzim that collectively contribute to nearly 10% of the Israeli economy. And 25% are traditional communal (i.e. moneyless) where tasks are shared or rotated and where the average population of each kibbutz is around 400 people. That's a community of nearly 30K living outside a monetary system in today's world. And some purists even argue that if it involves money, wage-differentials and private property it goes against the principles of the kibbutzim and is therefore not a true kibbutz by the definition.

    Oh, and regarding the Spanish Revolution, I advised you read Noam Chomsky's "Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship" section II, where he reviews the liberal intelligentsia's bias against the tremendous accomplishments of the Spanish workers and the reasons for that bias. Read it here, for free (as in you don't need to pay):

    http://www.ditext.com/chomsky/1968.html


    "In Barcelona, industry and commerce were largely collectivized, and a wave of collectivization spread through rural areas, as well as towns and villages, in Aragon, Castile, and the Levant, and to a lesser but still significant extent in many parts of Catalonia, Asturias, Estremadura, and Andalusia....The success of collectivization of industry and commerce in Barcelona impressed even highly unsympathetic observers such as Borkenau." Noam Chomsky - Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship from Chomsky on Anarchism
     
  16. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Go to 21:45 on the video below. They interview three old timers from Spain who talk about the time money was abolished in their community:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN5TbqzxQBg

    This was a large and ambitious movement.

    "There were commercial dealings with other collectives on the basis of barter. The value of produce was agreed by general consent. Rarely was money the basis for intercourse. The collective was affiliated to the regional federation of collectives and was based on solidarity and mutual aid. Man's exploitation of his fellow man was abolished utterly." The CNT in the Spanish Revolution by Jose Peirats.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And this phrase on your part, moneyless society, is what I'm going to hold you to.

    Found it, you ran time and bank together to form a single word.

    http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=7626481&postcount=1

    But your supposition there is in error, time banks (or timebanks) are not "popular globally." Several thousand people in 26 nations does not equate to "popular globally." Nor do the time banks collectively form a "moneyless society," the thinly spread participants (who come and go) are not a community in any way. The banks are more of a charitable organization. And you TheGoodNews fail to disclose that the local organizers of the time banks are themselves often paid employees.

    Moneyless huh?

    Except they were never Israel's foundation. Israel was never going to be a society of agrarian communes, but a urban society. The kibbutism were never Israel's "template."

    Nor were the Kibbutzim ever really "moneyless societies," they required constant in pouring of outside money to stay in operation. At first mostly from the Jewish National Fund. After Israel's became a nation the kibbutzism became dependent on government subsidies.

    How is that a "moneyless society?"

    Since you apparently enjoy quotes ...

    The globalization processes and the kibbutz failure to block them exposed the kibbutz society to a different type of culture. For example, after kibbutz members were allowed to have television sets in their own homes, the kibbutz members were exposed to “the good life” in which people were compensated for their work and could buy themselves different luxurious items. The kibbutzim were not capable of dealing with these processes

    Consumption and Market Society in Israel, by Carmeli Y. and Applbaum K.


    People in kibbutzism began to realize that the people in the rest of Israeli society (capitalist) and the rest of the world were "getting ahead" when those people work harder or smarter than the others within societies. Many within the kibbutzism want this life for themselves and their families. The people in the kibbutzism were all paid the same, regardless of their skills or labors. The kibbutzism simply could not compete with the growing knowledge of the non-kibbutz world.

    They start to bleed their best people.

    This lead to differences in pay within the kibbutzism based on the work individuals do, privatization of medical services, education, transfer of common property into the ownership of individual kibbutz members.

    Any "satisfaction" in the economic set-up of the kibbutz, can be attributed to being isolated from the life styles of the rest of the Jews in their greater society.

    Then how did they buy the television sets?

    And during these "early decades" how did they buy the land that they establish their communities on? Purchase the equipment to drain the swamps, farming equipment, weapons, building supplies?

    And they were also hiring (with money) outside labors to assist in construction, and at harvest time.

    But not a society in of themselves. They were not a "moneyless society," they were a short lived charity.

    Stop one damn minute, it's your position that those poor suffering people in that youtube video are CHOOSING to live like that? That's insane, less than one minute into the video, a woman dressed in red admitted her family having no money makes her feel ashamed. Later she said "what I really need is to work, to have money."

    These people are doing the best they can in a undesirable economic environment, offer any of those people a paying job and they would literally jump at it.

    This is one of your examples of a "moneyless society?"

    :(
     
  18. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    I think the people of TNZ were deliberately played as asinine. However, I'm inclined to believe people would be more tolerant than they would be of the reverse.
     
  19. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    NOPE! I never said (nor implied) that this is what they had chosen. The IMF imposed this unfortunate situation on these people. NEVER ONCE DID I SAY THAT THE PEOPLE OF ARGENTINA CHOSE THIS. BUT LIKE THE FACTORY & WORK PLACE OCCUPATIONS IN ARGENTINA, IN THEIR DESPERATION THEY DID SHOW GOOD INITIATIVE IN CREATING THEIR OWN SUPPORT SYSTEM SINCE NEITHER THE STATE NOR CAPITAL WERE IN A READY POSITION TO HELP THEM. AND IT PROVED TO BE A FUNCTIONAL SYSTEM DURING AN ECONOMIC CRASH AND IT BROUGHT SOME RELIEF TO NEARLY A 100,000 ARGENTINEANS. IN THE VIDEO (AT 17:39) IT MENTIONS THAT THESE ECONOMIC CO-OPS WERE SO SUCCESSFUL IN ARGENTINA THAT THERE WAS HOPE OF INTRODUCING THEM TO OTHER PARTS OF SOUTH AMERICA. AND IT DOES MENTION AFTERWARDS THAT THESE CO-OPS WERE NEVER INTENDED TO BE THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION TO THEIR ECONOMIC WOES. TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AND SEE.

    A society is a collection of individuals interacting with each other in a cohesive manner. It could be very large like China or India or very small like the Skull & Bones Society (which is anything but moneyless) and which has at any given time not more than a few hundred living individuals total. Christiania in Denmark is a separate society within Danish society that has about eight hundred members. Give or take. They have their own flag and currency.

    :shrug:
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think less "asinine, and more fish out of water. The woman didn't even know ahead of time she was going to be frozen, and then had to deal with (more than the two men) that all of her family was dead.

    The music man seem to have no problem with his surrounding right from the start, and it would be easy to see him assimilating in the future culture with the least trouble.

    The businessman (Offenhouse) was somewhere in the middle. My impression was that his problem wasn't direct that his money was gone, it's that his money was what he used to exercise control over his own life, with the lose of that control he was cast adrift.

    Picard's (asinine) pronouncement that the ability to control your own life is a illusion likely wasn't very helpfull. Picard's statement might be another example of one of Roddenberry's worst ideas.

    Someone asked earlier (iirc) what would the treatment be for three people from 300 years in the past waking up in our time, first they would likely instantly become celebrities. Yes some education would have to be offered, but the derisive comments heard I think would be absent.

    When the women started to cry, faced with her new realility, I very much doubt that a modern person standing in the room would wonder (as Picard apparently did) why she was crying.

    Picard could be clueless at times.

    :)