Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ZapBrannigan, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The elections in the 1980's brought the Panhellenic Socialist Party (PASOK) to power. Under the Panhellenic Socialist Movement, despite economic and taxation problems, the Greek welfare state expanded.

    When the PASOK came to power, it enacted the National Health System , services became free. In the 1990's the program changed when the conservative government introduced a small fee to reduce demand.

    Very nice, except the government couldn't afford it.

    The PASOK government change social security in the 1980s, they increasing the monthly pensions for large portions of the population and introduced pensions and medical benefits for retired farmers. The government needed to subsidize the funds in order for the system to function at all.

    All well and good, except the government couldn't afford this either.

    Upon joining the Euro, the Greece government went on a spending spree, allowing public sector workers' wages to nearly double over the last decade.

    Greece's problem is it's inability to control government spending on public employees and social services (welfare) that it simply can not afford. This is why austerity is being shoved down their throats

    You might want to go back to the people who taught you "Econ 101" and ask for your money back.

    Yet he was able to walk onto the bridge and in a few seconds evaluate an alien species (the first he'd even seen) and correctly ascertain their weakness (they haven't got a clue), their needs (They're hoping you know), and a basic character trait (they're too arrogant to ask).

    Hardly the abilities of a "hysterical" man. A far as not listening to Picard, to be honest Offenhouse probably never took Picard very seriously, likely left the ship considering Picard a complete fool. Offenhouse would adapt to the 24th century in time and find his own way.

    According to the (non-canon) novels in the year 2379, Ralph Offenhouse was appointed the Federation Secretary of Commerce.

    Wrong, what make you a "best doctor" is your abilities, education, and experiences in the medical field. The qualificatios you have in your craft, the skills you bring to your patients.

    But we do know for a fact that Beverly did have the financial means to make purchases. McCoy had the financial means to charter a starship.

    The EMH was a program inside a computer and realistically did not receive Starfleet pay.

    But he still bought a boat, didn't he?

    You seemingly are missing that people can enjoy their jobs and still be financially compensated for their efforts. This is why Robert Picard can delight in the making of wine and can also be financially successful in the selling of it. Joseph Sisko can enjoy cooking for his customers and still run his restaurant for a nice profit. Doctors can deeply care for their patients and also receive a hefty salary.

    One does not prevent the other.

    How much would people like McCoy, Crusher and Bashir make? Well they're not all the same rank, however a US Navy Lt. Commander makes about $70,000 a year, and depending on specialties and board certifications can get bonuses as high as $100,000 to stay in the service. This is far less than a civilian doctor would make.

    :)
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    For all we know, Scotty's boat could have been a kayak.
     
  3. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

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    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?
     
  4. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Greece faces a rise of its bond yields because it does not have control over its monetary policy. It's basically a multiple equilibria story. There is the good equilibrium in which bond yields are low and if enough people believe that a country might default on its public debt and act on this belief we can trend towards a bad equilibrium with increasing bond yields.
    Normally this can be prevented by the central bank via the commitment to buy public bonds (of course not directly from the treasury but on secondary markets). It does not necessarily have to imply actions, the mere commitment should prevent the speculative attacks mentioned in the previous paragraph.
    In Europe the ECB only started to play the role of lender of last resort at the end of last year .. and guess what, bond yields all over Europe stabilized.

    Wanna still go on ranting about the welfare state and pretend that you have any idea what you are talking about?
     
  5. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Greek colonels, a committed band of conservative heroes who idolized America, used their skills at tyranny and torture to created the "taxation problems" mentioned in a tangent above. Those were vastly more important as a domestic factor in Greece's problems than a decent standard of living for ordinary people. Quite aside from the supposed purpose of an economy being to provide for people's livelihoods, rather than people's lives being reduced to labor supply, it is plain that the facile assumption that Greece's problems are Greek, rather than a problem in the world capitalist system is unsupported. It is purely propagandistic.

    But of course we're not supposed to discuss genuinely relevant examples of reality as we supposedly discuss that validity of Roddenberryan extrapolations, are we? As noted, then, this is just another of those dread tangents, which are never allowed on a bbs!:lol:

    Data wanting to be human is a big mistake in TNG. Why would anyone want to lose their faculties, then die, most likely in slow decline terminated by agony? Plainly, the robot is broken.
     
  6. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Good point. If you truly care about bringing the public debt down revenues matter as much as expenditures. So the people who talk about public debt but merely wanna slash expenditures, or rather some very particular expenditures, do not care at all about public debt. It's very old bullshit and I am getting bored by it.
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Causality.

    But the underlying problem, the original source of the problem, is the Greek government's unwillingness to control it's fiscal policy. If it had that control, it wouldn't have problems selling bond/securities in the first place.

    Data was walking through his life as a fa├žade of a real person, he could record events around him, but not experience them, as often stated Data couldn't emotional feel. At the risk of sounding harsh toward a character I truly like, Data was dead on the inside, and he knew it.


    :)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  8. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    On the contrary. The beauty of Data was that he was often the most human character on the show. Spiner played him in such a way that you could get glances of the equivalent of emotions. Which is why the emotion chip idea didn't work.

    "Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself."
     
  9. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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  10. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

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    That's what I'm saying, though - you don't establish causality. You just say that some policies were implemented and then point to Greece's current problems. You haven't actually made a case that they're causally linked, you've just said so.
     
  11. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    as others have pointed out, that's not what caused Greece's economic problems. But of course the way the Western media has largely covered it, I'm not surprised that's the mainstream perception.

    As to what you're arguing, I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but do you mean a brain drain? A large group of the "productive class" "going Galt?"(I hope the reference is clear?:))

    I don't think that's a likely scenario in a society of highly-educated, highly-trained professionals. The "productive class" would not be as artificially limited as it is today by access to education and the like.
     
  12. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    True, season 1 poured it on heavily and usually in places you didn't expect.

    You could find it in the ordinary non obvious dialog and not just the famous ones everyone know about.

    One way I interpret if a scene is preachy, is if the person's face turns serious and stern when talking about what should be a light subject .

    When Picard explains what Starfleet is, he could have laughed and said, "Silly, Starfleet is much more than that!"

    Instead, he looks very offended and with a stern look says "Starfleet is NOT the military!"

    And then there's the unasked for extended commentary on a simple topic :lol:

    So far all we saw a greedy man, a funny, polite country drunk, and a scared woman.

    I think what Riker said was true in general, but as far the guests were concerned that was harsh.

    Implying that all 24th century humans were fearless, unselfish, intelligent, with no psychological issues whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2013
  13. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    I find it interesting you guys think the preachy stuff is limited to one episode (the most blatant I'll give you). Roddenberry (I gather it was him, since he reportedly did a re-write on nearly every Season 1 episode) seemed to slip it in to many episodes in less than blatant ways. At every turn in Season 1 is some kind of underhanded crack at 20th century humans expense.

    Nightdiamond's post explained it quite well, suddenly there would be an extended diatribe that no one asked for and wasn't really called for in the situation, etc.

    The back and forth with Q about being savages, etc. from Encounter at Farpoint is a big one of course. Picard takes great offense at all this mostly silly posturing by Q. Picard's reaction seems like it should have been similar to Uhura's reaction to fake Lincoln's use of a dead term that was once controversial, which is to say, it shouldn't have bothered him much, and he should have mostly just found it ignorant and moved on (not unlike Kirk finding Trelane to be a bit silly and ignorant thanks to his forgetting to compensate for the time light travels), but of course then we wouldn't of had half of the pilot episode plot.

    Go back and look at how episodes in Season 1 call many of the societies the crew encounter to be like "20th century Earth", others are just implied, and then basically there are lessons to be taught to these people by the great 24th century crew.

    ex.
    Ligonians from Code of Honor
    Frengi's are old Earth "Yankee Traders"
    The society on Angel One is literally said to be like 20th century Earth aside from dominant gender role flip/flip.
    Justice
    The whole thinly veiled '80s cocaine plotline in Symbiosis

    The preaching exposition seems terribly ethnocentric (Federation-centric), for lack of a better term, and really kind of counter to the Starfleet mission, that kind of exposition is really an odd thing to put in to the mouths of people who were supposed to have moved on from being petty.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  14. Jonas Grumby

    Jonas Grumby Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (perhaps in The Star Trek Writer's Guide or maybe in The Making of Star Trek) that one of Roddenberry's explicit edicts for TOS was that the main characters be written as basically modern-day men--complete with flaws, weaknesses, and even eccentricities--so that viewers could easily identify with them. That's certainly the way they were portrayed in most, if not all, of the episodes.

    By the time TNG rolled around, something had obviously changed. I think, by that time, Roddenberry had so bought into (or, at least, decided to exploit) the fan bullshit that he was some kind of great visionary that he saw his core audience not as the general public but rather as an elite clique of enlightened "Trekkers" who liked to think of themselves as members of Roddenberry's "evolved humanity" and looked down their noses at "20th century man."
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2013
  15. Casas9425

    Casas9425 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    "Gene Roddenberry couldn't write for sour owl poop"

    -Harlan Ellison
     
  16. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    Exactly the point I was trying to make a few posts back. The more you hear about Roddenberry's state of mind during TNG, the more it becomes clear he was deep into buying his own hype.

    The most recent/best example of this is the new documentaries included with the Blu-ray sets. The season 1 set is filled with the staff from S1 who (to varying degrees of politeness) say as much, DC Fontana and David Gerrold are pretty clear about it as I recall. Others say similar things: Ron D. Moore literally calls it out in his commentary on The Bonding on the S3 set (and a politely implies it in his interview for Trek Nation if I recall correctly, I'd have to re-watch it to be sure), I believe Melinda Snodgrass implies it as well in the S2 docs.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  17. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What's even more ironic is when later attitudes clash with the Utopian ones from early seasons or shows.

    Early in Trek it goes out to claim that humans are completely open and accepting--no prejudices. There seems to be many types of inter-species relationships .

    Does that mean a 24th century person wont let gender stand in the way of attraction?

    Beverly rejects her former lover Odan because he's now in a female body. At first it's obvious she anticipates meeting him again when she assumed it would be a male.

    She actually admitted she couldn't allow herself to be attracted to him anymore.

    But, since humans don't judge or care about appearance anymore, does that mean Beverly should have went ahead and had a relationship with regardless of her gender?

    Why couldn't she just be attracted to this woman the same way humans are OK with dating people from other planets/species?
     
  18. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    You're attracted to who you're attracted to. If Beverly doesn't physically respond to a female, that's not indicative of prejudice - that's her biology. She still loved Odan, but love isn't always enough.
     
  19. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    Right, it in-and-itself isn't an issue really.

    It's not like The Outcast or Cogenitor which have more clear gender and/or sexual preference issues/allegories.

    It's no different than her feeling weird that Odan moved to Riker, which is super awkward and she's very reluctant to move forward with him as Riker. Odan tries really really hard to get her to keep up the relationship while in Riker. The question becomes then would she still like Odan in any body she doesn't personally find attractive? Say an ugly or older man, I assume she'd eventually come to the same conclusion.

    As has been said on another site. She's expected to be an omni-sexual when very few people are that open, people generally feel attracted to who they are attracted to both physically and mentally, and it doesn't suddenly change.

    Of course if you go with the TNG-era Roddenberry ideology it does seem like by extension of what else he espoused then Beverly shouldn't be bothered by the changes... just like Jeremy Aster shouldn't be bothered by the loss of his mother, just like how no one is supposed to have any major interpersonal issues, etc. etc. People are supposed to be so well adjusted they take everything in stride.
     
  20. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    I would guess the Trill are much more sexually flexible (no pun intended). I wonder how many human lovers Captain Boday has had?

    As for everybody calling BS on Roddenberry's vision of enlightened humanity, think of this: Star Trek is farther in the future than slavery is in the past. If you don't think it's realistic to portray humans as bettering ourselves and socially evolving, take a frakkin' look around you.