Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ZapBrannigan, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    Maybe that has something to do with the fact that she murdered her fellow scientists to set up a situation where she could still her ex-boyfriend's body and her tendency to rant like a loon :)
     
  2. ROBE

    ROBE Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    I always wanted to see a no nonsense and competent female captain in miniskirt.
     
  3. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Out of my brain on the 5:15
    I thought it was the fancy stuff. Silk, lace and frills.


    Nah, they objected to Roddenberry casting his mistress in the part. If he had recast rather than eliminating the character, there would have been a female XO in the show.
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    The sequence of events would have been more difficult for Kirk, but the result would have been the same. Kirk would have first had to (somehow) have established a bank account. Sold the glasses. Instead of receiving cash, the value would have gone into the account. Which the officers would have pulled from.

    I seriously doubt that there will be vending machines for newspapers in 2086, but perhaps Kirk and crew would witness someone purchasing a soda from a vending machine with their phone (or some other method). Reminding them that they had no access to their own accounts in the future.

    In the scene you're referring to, Nog specifically said Humanity gave up currency. Interestingly, Nog didn't say the Federation as a whole had. Jake at no point said there was no money, only that he didn't need it, which was false.

    Now only a few episodes before, Jake personally engaged in a business transaction that resulted in Jake acquiring ... currency (GPL).

    Given that people in the 23rd/24th centuries still get sick, doesn't it automatically follow that they also still "need money?"

    It is true that people in the past had physical currency.

    Pretty consistent really, there are dozens and dozens of pieces of dialog about buying, selling, owning inside of the Federation. There is only one single line, in one movie, where one character overtly states money doesn't exist.

    Kirk: "I'm authorized to pay an equitable price."


    :)
     
  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    That's a logical way to rationalize it, but Roddenberry did allegedly state that it is meant to mean women aren't starship captains. Of course, if that's true, it's been rightfully ignored since Enterprise showed us female captains predating TOS.
     
  6. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2013
    You're not hearing me. You offer an interpretation of Kirk's words such that he's referring to physical currency only. My point is that his words make no sense if interpreted in that way. They need to get some money, be it physical or otherwise. If physical currency were obsolete in 1986, Kirk and company would still need to get some money, wouldn't they? So it makes no sense for Kirk to be referring to physical currency. His statement is a non-sequitur. Whereas if he's referring to money in general, his statement makes perfect sense.

    "It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement."

    If "currency" refers solely to physical money, then "currency-based economics" isn't a thing. The phrase doesn't mean anything. Nor does the adoption of 'a philosophy of self-enhancement' suggest itself as standing in contrast to the use of physical currency. Again, your interpretation renders the statement meaningless.

    And he also 'sells' his first article, and receives no payment. Again, irretrievably self-contradictory.

    No. If I tell you that the sky is green and that two and two make four, given that the sky is not green, does it follow that two and two don't make four? Wesley Crusher remarks on the common cold as 'something humans used to get' so we can assume without any real reaching that that's the order of 'sickness' Soong is referring to. But certainly he's not referring to physical currency only.

    Yes, it's true. But it makes absolutely no sense to interpret Soong's words in that way. Yet again your interpretation bids us regard the characters as speaking nonsense.

    No, there are also numerous lines which only make sense if interpreted in that way. To interpret them your way requires us to believe characters are saying things for no reason or saying things which are meaningless ("currency-based economics").

     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Out of my brain on the 5:15
    Did Roddenberry have much to do with Star Trek by the time "Turnabout Intruder" was made?
     
  8. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    He wrote the episode's story outline, so in the case of that episode, yes.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    The Wiki says the story is by Gene Roddenberry...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnabout_Intruder

    But he didn't write the final draft of the script, so we really don't know where the no female captains thing came from.
     
  10. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Out of my brain on the 5:15
    Yep, that line could be Singers or someone else involved with writing the script.
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    The "no female Starfleet captains" would also tend to make the Federation look ass-backwards when we saw a female Romulan commander a few episodes earlier.
     
  12. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Out of my brain on the 5:15
    That's why the Romulans laugh at them. :rommie:
     
  13. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    Here is a relevant portion from Roddenberry's story outline, dated May 8, 1968:

    Although Roddenberry's story is rampant with sexist assumptions and pomposity over his work, I do not believe the idea that woman cannot be Starship Captains is ever explicitly stated in the outline. That line must be Arthur Singer's.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    Thanks for doing the research Harvey. :techman:
     
  15. maneth

    maneth Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Location:
    maneth
    Thanks Harvey! It may shift the blame off of Roddenberry's shoulders but it doesn't make me like the ep any better...
     
  16. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2013
    Not liking that episode is MMMMMMUTINY! MMMMMMUTINNNYY!
     
  17. Danger Ace

    Danger Ace Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Location:
    California
    May have been mentioned already, Roddenberry's prohibition against conflict amongst the series' regulars on TNG. I never understood it especially considering the success and dynamics of the Spock-McCoy relationship.
     
  18. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    No. I was just going by the Star Trek Chronology, which makes a note that the line about no female starship captains seems unusually sexist for Star Trek and offers alternate ways of interpreting (eg, Lester may have meant Kirk's duties as a captain didn't allow him to spend time with her) before finishing off with saying Roddenberry's intent was the line was to mean that there are no female captains.
     
  19. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    There is an especially good 1960s memo from Roddenberry encouraging the inter-crew conflict he would later prohibit in the 1980s. I will see if I can turn up the relevant bit later this week.
     
  20. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    Never mind later this week -- found it!

    Of course, Roddenberry reversed his position on inter-character conflict twenty years later, which, ironically, caused quite a bit of inter-personal conflict behind the scenes of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
     

Share This Page