River and the Doctor knowing and not knowing each other...

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by gastrof, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. gastrof

    gastrof Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Recently I saw the old episode where the Doctor meets River in the Library, and she seems almost surprised he doesn't know her, implying that when she first met him, it was his tenth forum she first met. (Why else expect the tenth form to know her, and be surprised when he didn't?)

    Thing is, we now know that her first contact with the Doctor was in his 11th form.

    Why would she have expected the 10th to know her, and be surprised he didn't?

    Also, why does the 11th at a later point say to her almost defiantly "Just who ARE you River Song?"

    The way the line is delivered, he acts like he has no idea who she is, like he doesn't even remember that SHE KNOWS HIS NAME, and in the 10th Doctor's words "There's only one person I'd have told my name to".

    So why does the 11th act like she's such an unknown, distant thing?

    I can see her comment in the library being due to the writers not knowing Tennant would leave before they could do a lot with River, but it does make a mess that should be ironed out. Plus, 11th's comments are just plain strange, since the writers certainly had older episodes to go by in knowing just how familar the Doctor should be with River.

    Anyone have any ideas, read anything from behind the scenes, etc?

    Even a little speculation would be welcome, provided it's presented as such.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    When does Smith say the line "who are you"?
     
  3. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    The first meeting, yea, Moffat probably believed Tennant would be having at least 1 adventure with her.

    The "Just Who are..." makes perfect sense. She knows everything about him, but, he knows nothing about who she actually is, or why she knows so much about him. Imagine a "Hi...Bye" kind of relationship you might have with someone you see at a store once a month, that you've never had an in depth conversation with that knows your full name, your kids names, your address, etc. Wouldn't you wonder exactly who this person actually is, and why they know so much about you? You might think they were some kind of crazy stalker.
     
  4. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They haven't met in the right order. She may have met Ten more than once. Hell, she probably has met the Doctor in each of his incarnations. Sounds like an anthology book waiting to be written... ;)
     
  5. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

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    He knows she's called River, and he knows she knows his name, but at that point he still doesn't know exactly who she is so that seems a fair comment to me.
     
  6. intrinsical

    intrinsical Commodore Commodore

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    All she knows is this crazy man who has 13 (or more) different bodies, all of them has been popping throughout space-time in a totally random order. As an archaeologist trying to piece together these appearances like a jig-saw puzzle, I think all she can do recognize is the 13 different faces of The Doctor but she cannot readily identify which face belongs to which version of the Doctor.

    So unless the Doctor pointed out to River his various reincarnations "Look here, this is me in my original form. Oh that's me in my 8th and that picture here is my 3rd", its reasonable to assume she recognizes the Doctor at the Library but does not know he's the 10th Doctor.
     
  7. OmahaStar

    OmahaStar Disrespectful of his betters Admiral

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    It's in "A Good Man Goes to War" ... Amy's just lost her child, everyone's mad/depressed, and River shows up. They argue, and he asks "Where the hell were you?" ... A few questions later, "Who are you?" and she says she is telling him, as they look at the cot.
     
  8. Tom

    Tom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She thought 10 might have been a later version of the Doctor, and therefor would know her. When she realizes he is not a future incarnation she makes a comment about how young he looks. The irony of course is that 11 was actually a younger looking doctor than 10, a fact not know when SITL was written (Moffet probably assumed the next doctor would look a little older at the time). As far as the 'Who are you' line, 11 still did not know Rivers history or who she really was (Melody Pond), of course know he knows everything about her.
     
  9. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Actually Tennant looking younger to her, I can justify in my mind with how Tennant at that point in time had been healed by Rose and no longer carried he guilt, so, she was talking about the person reflected in his eyes looked young and carefree. Matt Smith's face, indeed is younger looking, but, there is a look in Matt Smith's eyes that does make him look very burdened and world weary.
     
  10. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's my thought too - honestly for a "young" actor - Matt Smith is learning how to play the world weary Doctor. Which I'm not sure I'm entirely crazy about. I'm sure they're trying to like make him Pertwee's second coming or something, give him more of a "I'm too old for this shit" kind of attitude versus Tennant's 80% of the time "Let's have fun!" or as his line from Waters of Mars when asked for name rank and purpose. "The Doctor. Doctor. Fun" 10 wanted to have fun. 11 seems overly pissed off at the universe - at least since the second part of Series 7 started. I mean I could see 10 doing that too - but then he'd get that little glint in his eyes and shout Allons-y! and run off and do something 'fun'.

    Now... as for River's comment "seeing you so young" maybe she can recognize him as being 'younger' than her Doctor. After all, didn't 10 say he was around 950 years old and now I think they established by 7.2 that he's like 1100 - so he's still quite a bit older in 11 than he was in 10. I imagine even if she went back to the 1st Doctor's time she'd comment "My God you're young." even though he physically looks old enough to be her grandfather.

    Although has anyone though that the reason why 11 was so moody and depressed - was because at that point, he sent River along to the Library? So he knew that it would be the last he'd really see of her at that point. That's why he's so hot for Clara Oswin Oswald. Rebound girl!
     
  11. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I hope not. Eleven sending River to the Library is something that I want to see happen in an actual episode.

    The whole "their lives are back to front" thing makes it very difficult to reconcile some of their relationship. I like to think that maybe that is a general rule to how they meet, but there are obviously exceptions, otherwise we never would have seen River again after she regenerates in "Let's Kill Hitler."

    I like to think that after they rebooted the universe, they changed some of the rules.
     
  12. OmahaStar

    OmahaStar Disrespectful of his betters Admiral

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    We did see it, possibly. On the sixth season dvd set, there are several shorts. One of them involves River getting a dress. "young" River doesn't care for it at all, but "old" River loves it. It's the Doctor and River intersecting in differing timestreams. By the end of the short films, we find out the Doctor is taking River on that final date before going to the Library. She's very excited, he isn't, and the younger Eleven immediately understands what's happening.
     
  13. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I have seen that, but I meant in an actual episode, not a DVD extra.
     
  14. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah I wish those shorts were online someplace or available on Netflix - I'd hate to have to buy the DVD sets just to see those shorts when I've already watched everything else.
     
  15. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I watched them on youtube somewhere.
     
  16. arch101

    arch101 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^I agree with Tom. She thought he was a later version, and almost seemed a bit disappointed when she realized he was an earlier (and possibly less helpful) Doc. Her task certainly would have been easier if 11 had met her at the Library. Still, it all worked out.