riker's choices

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by Mr Pointy Ears, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Whilst this might not be the case with Riker.

    Some people are better suited to a number two role. Are you saying that every person who is that role should be moved aside?
     
  2. Trek Survivor

    Trek Survivor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Um, who said they didn't?

    In "Chain of Command", Picard or Jellico mention how many times Riker's been decorated (did they say 5? I forget, it was several anyway). This doesn't mean dressed up in tinsel, you know. It means recognition/awards etc - one was almost undoubtedly for the Borg affair.
     
  3. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    It's fairly obvious that was the case, going by the line at the end of Generations where he says he always thought he'd have a crack at the ENT-D Captain's chair

    I tend to think this has merit too. He passed up a command to initially take the XO spot on the Enterprise, & then turned down 2 more before the events of BoBW, even then after being told outright he'd likely have his choice of any available captaincy, he remains aboard

    Either he's a big wuss without the balls to take the job, which I think is not likely in his case, or It's more likely that he's got his eye on Picard's captaincy & expects him to retire or become an admiral, which is a sound notion, because Picard had been offered promotion in the show's time too

    However, I'd really tend to think it wouldn't work that way. Why would they give you the flagship on your first command? What's more likely to expect is what Picard did with the Stargazer, & what he told Riker he should be doing when they offered the Aries. Get you a little ship & head out to the farthest reaches of space & relish in being the captain of your own ship carving into the universe

    That's what a guy who wants to be captain does. Riker seems like he's more interested in being a star than traveling them. Being Captain of the Enterprise is a prestige grab, & he's all about that, imho
     
  4. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Riker liked the spotlight, eh? That's believable. Sailing out to the unknown aboard Aries wouldn't have lead to much glory, would it... though it did work for Kirk, so maybe it's all in the ship's name.
     
  5. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, there's two schools of thought on that though. It's kind of hard to have all of Starfleet kissing your ass as the top dog captain, when you're on deep space assignment in the ass end of space. That's why there are stages in a captain's career. Kirk did his time in deep space, & so Did Picard. The recognition comes afterward, like admiralty, celebrity or flagship commands, once the tales of their adventures are spread around

    Riker seemingly wants to skip over that as if his experience as Picard's XO counts the same, & jump straight to the glory gigs, when in reality his adventures are as a crew member in the shadow of Picard. He wants the accolades of a man he's never been. He ain't Kirk or Picard, until he has run his own ship & crew out to the edge of the known galaxy & made some history for himself

    This is all really conjecture though, based on nothing but my observations of the character's actions & behavior. He's a prestige hog, & I guess a deep space gig on the little known Aries wasn't shiny enough for William T. Riker. What he seems to not know is the command is what you make of it. that's how the Enterprise name became legendary to begin with
     
  6. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, he was offered the Drake before it went to Paul Rice. It's not clear why Riker declined the chance to have a ship of his own. Had TNG ended sooner, it's possible he would have been promoted before any movies were produced. I remember there being talk about his being promoted before Insurrection, as well. He finally accepted promotion because Starfleet told him that he wouldn't get another offer if he turned the Titan down.

    As Nemesis was the last TNG film, it didn't make sense to keep him on the Enterprise with so many other characters departing: it would have been interesting had Picard sacrficed himself instead of Data, which would have elevated Riker to captain of the Enterprise, the post he wanted all along.

    --Sran
     
  7. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    This is the most likely explanation. Riker probably reasoned that he'd be more likely to get the Enterprise if he stayed aboard and allowed Picard to turn the ship over to him when he retired from Starfleet.

    Riker may have been concerned that he wouldn't get another shot at the Enterprise if he left the ship before Picard gave up of the vessel. What he didn't take into consideration is your point about being able to distinguish oneself by commanding another ship.

    Picard wasn't simply given the Enterprise. He earned it due to his outstanding service record aboard the Stargazer. He was already a legendary figure before he commanded Enterprise. Riker's status as the ship's executive officer earned him a great deal of noteriety and respect in the service, but the Enterprise was never his ship. Even in Picard's absence, Riker was viewed merely as a place-holder until JLP returned. He would have been better served by taking a command like the Aries and using that as a springboard to better command in the future. He certainly could have gotten another ship once the Aries' voyage to Beta Omicron was over.

    --Sran
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Was he, now?

    He wasn't being given any new starships during the time he was aboard the Stargazer. If he spent just five years commanding the old relic, fine. But if he were stuck as the CO of an outdated tub for more than a decade, it actually makes him a loser.

    And speaking of losing, among the things he lost was his starship. Is that really a recommendation?

    The mechanism by which Picard got the Enterprise was never properly explored in the episodes or movies. Perhaps getting the Federation Flagship is primarily a matter of knowing the right people, or being an acclaimed diplomat who also happens to be on Starfleet payroll in some suitable capacity, one of these being starship CO. Riker wouldn't have these paths open to him if the E-D really was his one goal in life.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    What does that say about Kirk, who spent the majority of his career commanding an obsolete Enterprise?

    Picard is hardly unique in having lost his vessel. He commanded the Stargazer for more than twenty years before it disappeared. He had ample time to bolster his resume: one incident wouldn't diminish several years of service to Starfleet.

    The Sky's the Limit is a collection of TNG short stories. One of them is about Captain Thomas Halloway, who presided over Enterprise-D's construction at Utopia Planitia. Halloway was offered command of the vessel but turned it down because he didn't want to uproot his family from Earth. Admiral Satie accepted his decision, as she'd known for some time that he wasn't going to take the assignment. Satie already had Picard's name in mind, citing his experience as a starship captain as a the primary reason for her interest.

    Novels and short stories aren't cannon, but this scenario is certainly plausible.

    --Sran
     
  10. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    What exactly did Picard do with Stargazer that was so "outstanding"? The only notable incident with the old rust bucket, i.e., something they cover at the Academy, was the development of the Picard Maneuver, and that was in a battle that was a draw at best, a loss for Picard at worst, since he misplaced an entire starship after the battle!

    If Picard really did command (and not just serve on) Stargazer for 22 years, it was probably a mostly humdrum and uneventful service.
     
  11. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    It's not clear how Picard distinguished himself as her captain. What's known is that Picard gained command of the vessel at a young age due to the previous captain's death. Picard's biography states that he was born in 2305. The incident in which he took command of the Stargazer's bridge happened in 2333. The Stargazer was lost in 2355.

    Picard may not have been promoted directly to captain after the incident, but may have instead been promoted to full commander before earning the rank of captain at a later date. He could still have captained the vessel, however, as one need not hold the rank of captain to serve as a ship's master. This being the case, several years may have passed before he actually earned the rank of captain, in which case Starfleet would not have promoted him immediately after his assignment on the Stargazer was over: that he lost the ship makes a promotion even less likely.

    Nine years is a long time to go without a command. An officer with the rank of captain may serve in other capacities, however. Perhaps Picard had other assignments that drew his interest before the Enterprise presented itself.

    --Sran
     
  12. Blackhorse47

    Blackhorse47 Ensign Newbie

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    Riker's actions on the Pegasus must figure in this somewhere. The implication was that his actions were so bad he could get court-martialed, so perhaps he figured keeping his head down as second in command was the best way of avoiding being compromised later.

    Either way, he got the worst of both worlds. He waited for Picard to go for fourteen years, and then gave up waiting and went elsewhere.
     
  13. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    If Riker was trying to keep a low profile because of his support of Pressman during the Pegasus mutiny, he did a crappy job of it. He rose from ensign to commander in, what, 7 or 8 years? That's a meteoric rise that was sure to get attention. Maybe Pressman had something to so with his climb to the top, maybe just to get Riker sent off into the wilderness and far away from him. But apparently Riker just wouldn't take a ship!
     
  14. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    No doubt. The incident with the Pegasus came to light in 2370. Riker was awarded the Titan in 2379. The intervening years saw conflicts with the Borg, the Dominion, and the Klingons. Riker almost certainly would not have been given a command so soon after Pegasus. He had plenty of chances to distinguish himself following that, however, so it's not surprising that Starfleet would give him another chance after enough time had passed.

    --Sran
     
  15. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    The Pegasus mutiny was covered up until Riker came forward. It's likely that only a few people in Starfleet knew the details of what happened. Picard used up several favors just to see a preliminary report on the ship's disappearance.

    If anything, Riker probably reasoned that he should do everything possible to distinguish himself in order to extinguish any doubts about his trustworthiness following the loss of the Pegasus. Pressman may have played a role in helping Riker find another posting, but Riker still had to perform well enough to earn the promotions he received.

    --Sran
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    That he was a has-been for most of those years, and an outright outcast for some of them. :devil:

    Definitely so. It's just that we only ever hear of his one screw-up and never of how he made amends in the following nine years.

    Alas, very little of this ever made it to the actual episodes. Certainly the past about Picard gaining command due to his skipper's death directly is apocryphal, and his young age is but one interpretation possible from the dialogue of "Conspiracy".

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Actually, it's not. In "Tapestry," Q allows Picard to see how his life would have turned out had the stabbing incident with the Nausicaans never happened. Picard is horrified to find himself trapped in a dead-end job as an astrophysicist. He confronts Q, who says that because the stabbing incident never took place, Picard never developed the courage and resolve needed to get noticed by his superiors. It's then that Q mentions Picard saving an ambassador and taking command of Stargazer's bridge after the death of its captain. It's not clear when this happened, but it's clear that it did.

    --Sran
     
  18. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Taking command of the bridge during a crisis is not the same as assuming permanent command of the vessel.
     
  19. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    No, but it's not a stretch to see how such an incident resulted in his eventually getting the vessel. What can be inferred about the event is that Picard was the highest ranking officer on the bridge at the time the captain died. Assuming command of the vessel was the appropriate thing to do. He may not have earned permanent command right away because of his rank, but his actions would surely have resulted in a commendation or promotion, putting him on the fast-track for the center seat.

    --Sran
     
  20. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    How fast, though? He was a captain by at least 2354, but that may have been the first year he was captain. We really know very little about Picard's career.
     

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