Requiem for Methuselah (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by ZapBrannigan, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    That'd be OK, but if he had been Kazanga or Sitar of Vulcan, they really would have busted the doors down.
     
  2. Grant

    Grant Commodore Commodore

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    Even in modern society bystanders are obliged under law to render aide if it will not endanger their own life. Flint under the alias MR "Brack" wound not have been allowed to purchase an entire planet and also have the right to begrude passing ships lifesaving assistance if it did not endanger his life.

    Flint was being a jerk and kirk wasn't going to lecture him or quote laws (which probably existed) he simply stated Flint could kill them and and ship would end up taking the required medicine anyway.

    If a cop was shot and bleeding to death in the street and his fellow officers saw a towel on your clothsline that would stop the bleeding and you got on your porch and told the other cops they couldn't set foot on your propety and you would kill them if they did. That person would be out of line and I think that a cop ignoring that threat and being shot dead would rightfully provoke a response and them eventually getting the towell.

    Starfleet as Kirk said "are the only police around" and they deserve the same benefit.

    Guess what, they'd be happy to pay for it and most decent people would be happy to help.
     
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  3. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock beamed into the Gideon recreation and he wasn't drugged in the slightest.
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Spock probably would have been drugged the same way Kirk was, if the drugging happened the way we saw it (or rather did not see) - without hyposprays or other visible means. That is, anybody beaming down would have received the drug in gaseous form in the fake transporter room...

    ...And probably continued to receive it throughout his stay in the replica. It didn't seem as if Spock's beam-down actually activated anything or alerted anybody, so the means of drugging would have to be "passive" like that anyway.

    Not that I'd think this to be the best way to explain the "exact but completely inoperative" duplicate. More probably, the Gideonites simply obtained the blueprints of this decades-old vessel, along with some photographs, and built some relevant parts of this while blocking access to the unbuilt parts by introducing "inoperative" doors and turbolifts.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. jayrath

    jayrath Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Flint's title didn't include the mineral rights. ;)
     
  6. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's not like we see transporters capable of beaming in an arc like fashion. They have to be in range of the coordinates, and that probably means "line of sight" in the sense of it being a mostly straight pathway. I obviously didn't mean "clearly visible" as we have so many examples of people beaming inside buildings and beneath layers of rock.

    I actually think it makes much more sense that Flint would've had a disabling power beam on the Enterprise, essentially "suspending" it in mechanical, electrical, and life sign form, then rapidly produce a miniature copy (scanned from the original) appearing on the table. I know the episode wasn't written that way, as we see the Enterprise wink out of orbit and Kirk's face show up on the view screen, but it was probably done because of the ease of SFX (not unlike the transporters versus a shuttle craft). If Flint could really do what he appeared to have done, then... the ryetalyn could have been materialized for Kirk in mere minutes and they'd have been on their way. Of course, that wouldn't make for much of a story. ;)
     
  7. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    To reiterate a point I made earlier: Yes, Flint can do anything; he's as omnipotent as a man can be (at least against other humans). Indeed he could have had gallons of antitoxin ready to transport at the snap of a finger. Despite all this, he can't have the one thing he wants, to create an immortal lover for himself, one who is a separate independent person or offers the perfect illusion of one, even to her creator. Thus he holds out on Kirk et al. to see whether their presence (or Kirk's, anyway) can enliven Rayna.

    Really there are three tragedies that bring down the mighty Flint: the one in the past (having outlived every woman he ever loved, and presumably their children as well, although unmentioned), the one in the present (Rayna and her equally unsuccessful prototypes, a grand attempt to remedy tragedy #1 through sheer artistry), and the one in the future (his long-delayed aging and demise, the result of leaving Earth to stop repeating tragedy #1).

    This is what makes Flint's (Akarin's) story worth telling; the special effects, and what they "really" represent, are all extraneous. (Although I'm glad the remastered version added a new exterior of Flint's base of operations. Wow!)
     
  8. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    Well, something happened, because he acquired a wound on his arm and couldn't remember when it occured (likely when the Gideonites extracted the diseased blood)
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...In any case, there is no technology level inconsistency in the Gideonites being able to (and willing to) build a replica starship as a necessary part of their scheme. They lacked in personal space, but they obviously had formidable technologies and industrial capabilities in order to be able to keep the tightly packed megacities stocked and fed. They were just prisoners of their religious mores, and could not use these technologies to pursue their goals in more direct ways.

    In contrast, Flint having the technology necessary for shrinking Kirk's starship is indeed extraneous - it doesn't naturally flow from his character history (he seems to be living with and out of mankind, without access to extraterrestrial wonders, until he purchases the planet), nor is it in any sort of balance with his other achievements and failures (his technologies can't even keep the Raynas safe from the prying eyes of his guests). But Flint being an experienced flim-flam man is consistent with the character and the technologies - and the trick he does with the starship is pretty much the same as "Ardra" making the E-D disappear.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Truly fantastic technology might look like a cheap visual effect. In Steven Gould's excellent, original novel JUMPER (not the movie prequel titled JUMPER: GRIFFIN'S STORY), a young man learns that he has the ability to teleport. (Okay, so it's not technology, but you get the idea.) The book describes teleporting as instantaneous—Davy simply disappears or appears with no pop, no bang, no flash of light or other fireworks.

    James Bond movies are closer to the source material than the movie JUMPER. In the movie, each jump is bounded by earthquake-like rumbling and shaking and the kind of "jump scar" seen from Nightcrawler in X-MEN 2. (Don't even get me started on everything else that is wrong with the movie and the differences from the book character.)

    The point is, really advanced technology might not be terribly exciting visually. Seamless.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or at least it might argued that if one can afford advanced technology, one will also afford the slightly less advanced technology needed to make the main tech look pretty.

    That way, Ardra can do neater transporter tricks than Picard: she adds the pretty parts with cheap holographics, while Starfleet sees no benefit in camouflaging the glare or whine of a transporter effect. That is, Starfleet other than SF Intelligence or its bastard offspring Section 31...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Exactly what I was thinking, but didn't make the Ardra connection. Good one, Timo. :techman:
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Flint would have it easier, too, as Ardra somehow prevented the supposedly resourceful starship from making contact with Picard for hours upon hours... Flint only needed to confuse our heroes for a few minutes.

    Flint would need formidable scanning skills in order to create such a plausible miniature of Kirk's ship, though (including the miniature crew). This speaks against any hope of sneaking into Flint's back yard to grab the rhyetalyn.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    Why is it a trick? We do not need to know what Flint has encountered (technologically speaking) to accept he has the power to reduce the actual vessel to tabletop model size--particularly since the man already proved his command of advance tech by creating androids so realistic, humans simply accept them as the genuine article.

    Furthermore, we must consider his line, "you will know the future, Captain Kirk," which means exaclty that: he will place the landing party in the same state of suspended animation as those aboard the Enterprise. Why lie and/or play a trick about such a power, when the risk of Kirk calling his bluff would be severe (considering how "selfish" & "brutal" humans are--in Flint's opinion).

    Would you (in Flint's position) play a trick of that nature, knowing what would happen if Kirk and company acted with violence?

    Finally, for the audience's sake, we see what the landing party cannot: the ship vanishing from orbit--proving that Flint's power was not trickery or illusion.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But the thing is, if Flint really has this power, then it's not plausible that he would have to struggle with making a perfect android, or making Kirk stop bothering him in the first place. Flint has to be physically vulnerable, and a man who can shrink starships is invulnerable to the extent of divinity.

    Okay, so perhaps giving a tender soul to the perfect android is difficult in the TOS context. But why doesn't Flint make the heroes disappear when they first intrude, or send their ship away when it first tries to make an approach? Yet even if you don't have the power, you can always arrange for a demonstration - North Korea could give some pointers there. It just calls for the perfect setup, so you have to tolerate the guests until your demonstration is ready.

    But that's the same trick Ardra pulled, and making it look as if the ship vanished is essential for making the people outside the ship scared. Spock still has his tricorder, Kirk has his communicator; the ship has to be made invisible and inaudible to these if the ruse is to work.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Metryq

    Metryq Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Kirk looking in through the bridge viewscreen, as though it were a window, is a similar "shorthand." I don't think the audience is meant to take it literally. What matters is that whatever Kirk was shown was convincing evidence of Flint's power.

    One of the limitations of the TOS-R effects is that they all had to fit into the same space as the older VFX they were replacing. Assuming a complete "remake," how might Flynn's powers have been depicted—in a way compelling to both Kirk and the audience?
     
  17. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    Not necessarily. The ability to feel romantic love was in Rayna's programming, so technically, Flint was successful all along. His problem was not lack of ability, but the fact he was not "that guy" in her eyes, and never would be--essentially what Spock told him when referring to Flint as a teacher/father.

    So, Flint's power cannot be downgraded to limit the Enterprise event as some sort of trick, as it would make no sense for Flint to threaten to place the crew in suspended animation--in miniturized form--if he could not act on it.

    To bluff and not be able to back it up would place his life in great danger.

    He was desperate. Initially, he did not want the landing party around, but he had to be honest with himself--slowly--that Rayna's lack of romantic feeling was his problem, not hers. With so few (or no) visitors, why not use them as the experiement to play with Rayna's "heart strings?" He ws not going to leave his world to seek gi


    ...which was accomplished with the suspended animation effect, not trickery. Reiterating, with so much at stake, it would have been foolish for Flint to threaten something he could not carry out, not only for fear of revenge, but the threat to Rayna; he hardly trusted Kirk & the others, so imagine his legitimate fear of a ship of 430 marching down on his hideaway--a real possibility if he lacked the power to control/stop the ship at will.
     
  18. Impromp2

    Impromp2 Cadet Newbie

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    I am always puzzled by the oversight in the Waltz scene with Spock at the piano. Granted, not every one can read music, but still it is worth noting that the manuscript that Spock reveals to the camera and states to be in Johannes Brahms' own hand is actually a very "well known" waltz: Waltz no. 1 in B Opus 39 by Brahms. Although we all know that Ditmars wrote the waltz for the episode, if props was required to supply a hand-written musical manuscript of an unknown waltz by Brahms that Spock is to play on screen, why not just transcribe the Ditmars music? Why write out a well known waltz by Brahms that classical pianists will instantly recognize on sight? As Spock would say: "Fascinating ..."
     
  19. ToddPence

    ToddPence Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What's really strange about this is that Starfleet has had one of the starships of its premier line out of contact for six months and no one's investigated until the Enterprise happens to stumble across her.
     
  20. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    as Ditmer's music written before the episode was filmed? If not, that's the answer. Also, probably just cheaper to grab an existing sheet of music than to have a custom one made up as a prop.