Reman Warbird Scimitar

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by cwl, May 13, 2009.

  1. jacoboram75

    jacoboram75 Guest

    nowhere in the cine is it mentioned or even adumbrated that the Scimitar would accept been kept abstruse from everybody except the Remans. A hardly earlier Software adaptation begin at TrekCore makes it added absolute that the Romulan aggressive knew of the address and her capabilities, but even the aired adaptation makes it altogether accessible to anticipate of this as a Romulan abstruse project, rather than something done adjoin Romulan wishes
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2012
  2. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I thought cadets weren't supposed to be able to link images like that? How'd that bot do it?

    Love the inclusion of "adumbrated" in its vocabulary...

    I'm sure there were. And then Shinzon changed the minor details of the deal.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I don't quite get this line of reasoning. Star Trek is always packed with fanwank. Scotty's tribble on Delta Vega. Mirror Archer fighing a Gorn, on board a ship that vanished during TOS. Picard chatting with Janeway. Bringing back Khan (the first time!). Bringing back Spock (every time). Voyager crossing over with STVI. Is there any Trek thats fanwank-free? Surely such a thing would be totally divorced from prior Treks to the point where it's Trek in name only?
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I guess the problem with comics is that every one of them is jam-packed with this sort of stuff, whereas the aired material at least gets diluted with some original content.

    Countdown fails to be a plausible prequel or expansion to the movie on many counts - but "Flashback" failed to be a plausible companion to ST6, and ST2 had some oddities for being a supposed sequel to "Space Seed". Then again, we can blame the "Flashback" oddities on it all being Tuvok's feverish dream (which was sort of the point of the episode!), and ST2 ain't all that bad. Countdown is beyond redemption as regards its continuity errors...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, and on-topic: I thought the Scimitar was cool, although yes, it's backstory of being built by slaves in secret is preposterous. IIRC, the novels changed it to being a stolen Romulan prototype.

    The design, both inside and out, has some similarities with the Narada and the Romulan Drone ships seen in Enterprise. Mostly the colours, the exposed piping everywhere and the consoles. When the Scimitar's wings open up at the end, it's vaguely reminiscent of Narada's tentacles.
     
  6. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    And why would the Romulans allow Shinzon to kick off all the Romulan officers on the ship? Anyway you slice it, the Romulans come off as foolish if they played a part in building the Scimitar, because somehow the Remans gained total control of it. The Remans controlling this ship, should be far more dangerous to the Romulans then the Federation ever was.
     
  7. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Apparently three people can steal a Federation starship from inside a heavily-fortified Starfleet spacedock with the doors locked - so the Romulans are hardly alone in letting shit like this happen.
     
  8. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    :bolian:
     
  9. Tom

    Tom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Another factor that could be at place is that the Scimitar was probably built right after the Dominion war so you would assume that romulan ship building was very very busy during that period due to all the destroyed ships (hence the new Warbird designs) so there may have been more material and such around than normal that the Remans could have snuck off to help build the Scimitar.
     
  10. comsol

    comsol Captain Captain

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    I always liked the theory that the Scimitar was a Dominion vessel that the Remans had secretly captured and refurbished for themselves. It does rather look like a Dominion ship (of course most of John Eaves designs tend to look alike).
     
  11. billcosby

    billcosby Commodore Commodore

    Nearly everything about the film was contrived!
    But it was my understanding that the ship was so badass with its weapons because it had somehow acquired Borg technology?
     
  12. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    The Scimitar is most likely a post Dominion War ship if you look at all it's technical specs.With it's 52 disruptors, 27 photon torpedo bays, perfect cloak, primary and secondary shields and a thalaron generator. With what we saw on how easily the Dominion ships ripped through the Romulan, Federation and Klingon ships. The Scimitar class could very well be a new class of Dreadnought ships.

    Looking at how the the Sovereign class like the Enterprise-E has 16 type-XII phasers, 9 photon torpedo bays, 1 quantum torpedo bay, alblative armor was designed and commission after the Enterprise-D's first encounter with the Borg in "Q Who".

    As far as it being built at a "secret base", that's possible as well. Given that the Romulan senate, military and Tal Shiar all operate with separate goals, prerogatives, and direction. It's not to much of a stretch that the Scimitar was built with in secret, of one of those organizations knowledge.
    1. The senate was assassinated, but the praetor may have known of the scimitar class and the purpose the military had for it and rejected their proposal to use it.

    2. Or The Tal Shiar may have commissioned the ship to be built. They are the secret police/ intelligence agency for the Romulans. They would have the resources to build such a ship.

    3. The military in the movie and book seemed familiar with the ship and didn't display any foreseeable danger from Shinzon commanding it with Remans. Also think to the battle of Bassen Rift. The 2 Romulan Valdore class ships had no trouble tracking the Scimitar which was under cloak to the Bassen Rift.

    It's possible that the Scimitar was built and with Shinzon being a commander of the Remans. He chose to use that ship manned only with Remans. Given that Remans are slaves we can rule out the Remans building completely independent of Romulan knowledge. Whomever helped set Shinzon up to stage a coup, are the people who gave put Shinzon in a position to command the Scimitar.

    I believe the Scimitar class is selectable ship in Star Trek Online, and is used by the Romulans in that game.

     
  13. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Know the Scimitar doesn't have Borg tech. That would be the Narada. The borg tech it has though only grows and repairs the hull of the ship and helps run some of the ships functions since it's so massive and doesn't have the crew to do everything.

    Can't stress this enough, IGNORE THE COUNTDOWN COMIC when it comes to talking about the Narada.
     
  14. billcosby

    billcosby Commodore Commodore

    Oh shit, my bad. I got my Trek films crossed. :P
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    If the Narada really had Borg tech, then why is she portrayed as lacking in all the classic Borg abilities? She seems to be technologically humdrum (slow, almost unarmed), easily wounded (all ramming attacks against it are highly successful, and "shields up" or "shields down" make no difference whatsoever in combat), incapable of any visible self-repair, dependent on centralized resources, low on ammo...

    Nero wouldn't have had the clout or the time to acquire any Borg tech, either. His "decades of meticulously planning an evil scheme of revenge" came only after he had been stranded away from home base! But Shinzon was right next to the resources of the Star Empire when doing his evil planning; if his supposed puppet masters wanted to support the Spartacus rebellion, they could very well have given Shinzon some select pieces of advanced alien technologies (clever Dominion deathdust, cutting edge Federation android inventions, Borg-inspired starship components) so that this definite underdog could have his day.

    For all we know, the faction supporting Shinzon had installed all sorts of backdoors and dead man's switches to make sure Shinzon didn't get completely out of control. It's just that the movie did not show any instance where such things would have been necessary. Shinzon postured a lot, but he never e.g. killed one of his handlers, forced them to do distasteful things, or used the weapons at his disposal. When he did start his silly crusade against Earth, the handlers were divided on whether this was a good thing or not - and when they decided it was not, they launched a seemingly sufficient countermeasure in the form of two powerful warships against Shinzon's one. Even if Shinzon was the loud one, there's no indication he really called the shots, as there were no shots to be called, not really.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The thing is, the Narada looks like it very much could use Borg technology, inside andout, right down to the eerie glow before the ship jumps to warp.

    But, remember there's a difference between using Borg technology and using Romulan designs inspired by Borg tech. In "Countdown", Commander D'Spal says, "We retrofitted Borg technology and applied it to our own designs" - which is pretty much what Voyager did when building the Delta Flyer. Hence Narada having it's unique set of abilities and failings.
     
  17. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    I got the blu-ray special features version of the 09 movie to see all the canon abilities of the Narada. The Narada has reverse engineered Borg tech, helps grow the hull and repair the ship, and run the computer functions. The Narada is armed only with torpedos, and when Nero screamed "Fire Everything" you can count the torpedoes and see only 27 heading for the Jellyfish. The Narada is also equipped with transwarp drive, the special features claim. But nuEnterprise at warp 4 is able to catch up with the Narada as it heads for Earth after Nero destroyed Vulcan. Given the proximity of Earth and Vulcan, it's just another plot hole in the movie.


    The special features does insert that the "simple mining vessel" was upgraded by Romulans at the secret base "The Vault", after Romulus' destruction. Going by what we see in the movie though. Spock left Vulcan, en route to Romulus was destroyed, and Nero appears in his space octopus and both are sucked into the red matter black hole. There isn't time refit a ship that fast.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The Countdown rationale of equipping the Narada is fundamentally faulty, though: Nero's ship could not have been the Romulan instrument of revenge, because when there was something to avenge, there no longer was time to equip the ship (Nero got sent to the past within minutes or perhaps seconds of the loss of Romulus) - and before the calamity, a mining rig operated by civilians would have been the absolute last thing to receive such technologies.

    Of course, an alternate storyline might have Nero getting sucked into the past, then spending 25 years acquiring Borg technology, because he would have late 24th century knowledge on where to look for it in the mid-23rd. But that wouldn't explain the looks of the Narada when she first appeared in our sights.

    In contrast, the Romulans/Remans of ST:NEM would have all the time in the world to introduce Borg or Dominion technologies or other alien inventions into their latest round of warships. But apparently our UFP heroes aren't unfamiliar with thalaron technology... Indeed, thalarons take very few characters by surprise, the only arguable surprisees being the victims of the assassination in the teaser. Does this mean that

    a) thalaron tech was common knowledge but there were no military technology experts in the Senate meeting, nobody to realize what they were seeing?
    b) thalaron tech was common knowledge, but not commonly associated with floating spirals and fountains of sparkling particles?
    c) thalaron tech was only known to few in the Star Empire, even though commonly known in Starfleet, and even the military experts in the Senate were unfamiliar with it?

    The Scimitar is a strange construct in any case. She carries a heavy conventional armament that makes her a "predator" in UFP tactical analysis. Yet her entire structure appears to be dictated by the thalaron weapon, and our heroes only realize this after observing a telltale thalaron "leak". And she is large, representing a significant construction effort. Would Romulans really build a ship that combines the characteristics, when wars might better be waged by two separate designs? On the other hand, would Remans waste time with conventional firepower if their resources were limited and their sole intent was to blackmail their military superiors on the neighboring world?

    Romulans clearly didn't want Earth (or any other enemy of theirs) destroyed by thalarons. So why build a thalaron ship, either for themselves or for Spartacus? Yet if they built a ship for Spartacus, how could the structurally fundamental addition of thalaron armament fail to attract their attention?

    The Scimitar fits Shinzon's needs perfectly. It doesn't fit Shinzon's means, though; it fits Romulan means perfectly. But it doesn't fit Romulan needs...

    Naah - it's just a nonsensical hole in the backstage information. If we ignore that information, then the idea of the Narada being a lumbering mining platform that can be outpaced by any and all 23rd century spacecraft is compatible with the plot...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    You're assuming events of a mind meld, in an already blisteringly fast-paced film, happened in real-time. Look at the Enterprise's warp to Vulcan - cut to look like it's happening in real time, but with Kirk, and then McCoy changing uniforms beween cuts, and Kirk's sedative having time to wear off.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I don't have to assume anything more than that Spock isn't telling an outright and sinister lie.

    That is, Spock says he deployed the red matter and headed for home. Unless he is refusing to tell about something he did in the meantime that took several days, he's leaving us absolutely no time for this supposed upgunning of the Narada. Nero must meet with Spock before Spock's reputedly fast ship can return to Vulcan, indeed before that ship can leave the most immediate vicinity of the timehole, and that gives Nero only minutes at the very best.

    Why would Spock omit a period of several days there? The omission is not reasonable in mere terms of "narrative brevity": we need a very explicit and sensible reason for Spock to remain where nothing else remained. It would be completely out of character for Spock to spend three days weeping for the lost Romulus, for example. Or to stare at the black hole out of idle scientific curiosity.

    Add to this that the black holes created by red matter do not appear to live long. The 2233 thunderstorm in space would not remain a mystery in 2258 if it did not disappear before the Federation could send another team to look at it. Vulcan did not appear to leave behind a hole, either (although it might of course have been too small to be seen). And Spock's arrival at the 23rd century seemed to involve a temporal timehole rather than a permanent one, too. Nero and Spock could not have reached the 23rd century if they spent several days preparing for the trip.

    EDIT: unless

    a) the supernova-countering hole had more permanence than the other sorts (but this doesn't appear likely, because holes created by one droplet and holes created by a barrelful of the stuff were seen to be identical, and a hole involving a planet had no more permanence than holes created in stark vacuum)

    b) Spock created a second hole some time after leaving Romulus, realizing his tiny ship had no other tactical chance against Nero's juggernaut but a daredevil maneuver around a black hole (but that in turn takes a narrative shortcut, as Spock only speaks of "the" black hole)

    Timo Saloniemi